Re: Discussion of alt for CSS images

Ok I think the results are ready to discuss.

http://davidmacd.com/blog/css-background-images.html


Cheers,

David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*

Tel:  613.235.4902

LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

www.Can-Adapt.com



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On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 12:30 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> Urrrg... ! You are so right James... that did it... we have to get Gez to
> add that...
>
> Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 11:59 AM, james.nurthen@oracle.com <
> james.nurthen@oracle.com> wrote:
>
>> Have you made sure to start JAWS before you start Firefox?
>>
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2015, at 8:28 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Mike
>>
>> JAWS16 read the aria-label and role="img" fine in Chrome in the example
>> but IE and FF are not reading them.
>>
>> I've actually stopped using JAWS and FF, because it doesn't seem to go
>> into Browser mode.
>> I've tried all the fixes here
>> http://juicystudio.com/article/handling-erratic-behaviour-at.php
>>
>> So if someone has their JAWS and FF running well together perhaps they
>> can confirm my results.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> David MacDonald
>>
>>
>>
>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>
>> Tel:  613.235.4902
>>
>> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>
>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>
>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 7:24 PM, Mike Elledge <melledge@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is very interesting, David. I know you asked that others check the
>>> JAWS interactions, but are accessibility problems most often with JAWS and
>>> IE together? I had assumed (perhaps unfairly) the culprit was most often IE
>>> alone.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 27, 2015, at 4:53 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> As per my action items, here are testing results for CSS background and
>>> CSS inline images.
>>>
>>> http://davidmacd.com/blog/css-background-images.html
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> David MacDonald
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>>
>>> Tel:  613.235.4902
>>>
>>> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>>
>>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>>
>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 12:19 PM, James Nurthen <
>>> james.nurthen@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  not Jonathan but I think we are talking about things like
>>>>
>>>> #myid:before
>>>> {
>>>>  content:url('http://www.w3.org/2008/site/images/logo-w3c-screen-lg');
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>> On 3/27/2015 9:01 AM, David MacDonald wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Hi Jonathan
>>>>
>>>>  I'm just throwing up some examples now... When you speak of "inline
>>>> CSS images", are you speaking about a regular <img ...> tag which is
>>>> positioned with CSS, or a CSS background image which has been positioned
>>>> inline using CSS?
>>>>
>>>>   Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> David MacDonald
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>>>
>>>> Tel:  613.235.4902
>>>>
>>>> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>>>
>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>>>>  *            Including those with disabilities*
>>>>
>>>>  If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy
>>>> policy <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 2:00 PM, Jonathan Avila <
>>>> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Ø  Yes that is what I was referring to. I think this is a problem
>>>>> especially for low vision users - perhaps we have done a disservice to
>>>>> those users in this instance.....
>>>>>
>>>>> I would agree.  So to be clear, we are talking about two issues that
>>>>> impact users with low vision.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.    Use of CSS background  images that convey meaning but have
>>>>> programmatic names via properties such as aria-label
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.    Use of inline CSS images that convey meaning and have
>>>>> programmatic names via properties such as aria-label.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> While these two issues may sounds the same – CSS images are supposed
>>>>> to be presentational and those background images are rightly removed in
>>>>> high contrast mode and when color are often turned off by the browser to
>>>>> improve reading contrast for users with low vision.  Inline images are
>>>>> considered non-presentational and thus are still displayed in these modes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, IMO the CSS background issue is a more egregious issue while the
>>>>> aria-label on inline images is lesser because at least the inline image is
>>>>> visually available.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Without any requirement for the user agent to display accessibility
>>>>> names for inline images it is problematic and raises accessibility support
>>>>> issues.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Use of presentation images with only programmatic indicators seems to
>>>>> meet like a failure – but WCAG doesn’t seem to address this under 1.1.1 or
>>>>> 1.3.1.  Seems like an oversight.  For example, WCAG WG thought wisely in SC
>>>>> 1.4.1 to require a visual indicator of color in addition to a programmatic
>>>>> one – but this didn’t carry over to CSS background images as 1.1.1 and
>>>>> 1.3.1 only require programmatic indicators and not visual.  I think the
>>>>> assumption is that everyone can interpret visual information or else they
>>>>> will be using assistive technology or a browser that has some accessibility
>>>>> feature that compensates.  While that is generally true – background images
>>>>> seem like a safe thing to remove as they are only for background purpose.
>>>>> The problem is that people are using CSS background images to convey
>>>>> meaning because use of inline images have performance challenges.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my two cents.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jonathan Avila
>>>>> Chief Accessibility Officer
>>>>> SSB BART Group
>>>>> jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Phone 703.637.8957
>>>>> Follow us: Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/#%21/ssbbartgroup> |
>>>>> Twitter <http://twitter.com/#%21/SSBBARTGroup> | LinkedIn
>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/355266?trk=tyah> | Blog
>>>>> <http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/blog> | Newsletter
>>>>> <http://eepurl.com/O5DP>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Katie Haritos-Shea [mailto:ryladog@gmail.com]
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 25, 2015 9:45 PM
>>>>> *To:* David MacDonald
>>>>> *Cc:* WCAG
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Discussion of alt for CSS images
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> David,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes that is what I was referring to. I think this is a problem
>>>>> especially for low vision users - perhaps we have done a disservice to
>>>>> those users in this instance.....
>>>>>
>>>>> * katie *
>>>>>
>>>>> Katie Haritos-Shea @ GMAIL
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 25, 2015 4:05 PM, "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Katie
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you mean if for example if someone has images turned off, or if a
>>>>> file reference was wrong, the alt would appear in the space where the image
>>>>> is, but the aria-label won't?
>>>>>
>>>>> If so, I've heard a few discussions of that on the HTML5 group. I
>>>>> think most would say that it is not a cross browser behaviour, and that
>>>>> some browsers show the alt, and others don't show the alt, and that
>>>>> browsers could show the aria-label if they wanted to.
>>>>>
>>>>> The precedence which was set when we removed the requirement for alt
>>>>> on images if there is another means of reporting ACCNAME to the API, (which
>>>>> I was not particularly in favour of), sets a precedent that this behaviour
>>>>> of populating the empty image space with a visible alt, is not considered
>>>>> necessary for conformance by our Committee, and therefore not necessary for
>>>>> conformance here.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> David MacDonald
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>>>>
>>>>> Tel:  613.235.4902
>>>>>
>>>>> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>>>>
>>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>>>>>
>>>>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy
>>>>> policy <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL <
>>>>> ryladog@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> David,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The other issue was what is visually apparent to users who do not use
>>>>> AT (concerning CSS images), but are not getting the images. There is not
>>>>> alt text. Any ideas on that issue?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ** katie **
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Katie Haritos-Shea*
>>>>> *Senior Accessibility SME (WCAG/Section 508/ADA/AODA)*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cell: 703-371-5545 <703-371-5545> **|* *ryladog@gmail.com*
>>>>> <ryladog@gmail.com> *|* *Oakton, VA **|* *LinkedIn Profile*
>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/katieharitosshea/>*|* *Office:
>>>>> 703-371-5545 <703-371-5545>*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 25, 2015 12:34 PM
>>>>> *To:* WCAG
>>>>> *Subject:* Discussion of alt for CSS images
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Reading through the minutes I see there was a discussion about CSS in
>>>>> images... it appears one concern is that it is not announced to screen
>>>>> readers as an image. Although I generally discourage the use or CSS images,
>>>>> if someone has to do them I suggest using role="image"
>>>>>
>>>>> <div role="image" class="myPicture" aria-label="My dog fluffy looking
>>>>> happy">
>>>>>
>>>>> This should announce to a screen reader that it is an image and the
>>>>> alternate text...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> David MacDonald
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>>>>
>>>>> Tel:  613.235.4902
>>>>>
>>>>> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>>>>
>>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>>>>>
>>>>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy
>>>>> policy <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Marc Johlic <johlic@us.ibm.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Minutes for the March 24, 2015 meeting:
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2015/03/24-wai-wcag-minutes.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Marc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marc Johlic | Accessibility Consultant - Web, Mobile, & Multimedia | IBM
>>>>> *Accessibility* | IBM Research
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From:        Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>
>>>>> To:        WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>>>> Date:        03/20/2015 09:30 AM
>>>>> Subject:        WCAG Agenda March 24 2015
>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The WCAG WG will be meeting on Tuesday, 24 March 2015 at 11AM Eastern
>>>>> US
>>>>>
>>>>> (Length: up to 90 minutes)
>>>>>
>>>>> Bridge: +1.617.761.6200  (US) Passcode: 9224#
>>>>>
>>>>> IRC: irc.w3.org<http://irc.w3.org>  port: 6665 channel #wai-wcag
>>>>>
>>>>> Scribe list:https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
>>>>>
>>>>> Survey/Agenda
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) WCAG F2F @ TPAC Sapporo, and comment responses etc
>>>>> New survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/24thMarch2015/
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Techniques work
>>>>>
>>>>> 3) Charter update
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) Reminder about outstanding actions
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Joshue O Connor/Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>>> WCAG working group co-chairs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards, James
>>>>
>>>> <oracle_sig_logo.gif> <http://www.oracle.com>
>>>> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
>>>> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987
>>>> 1918 <+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com
>>>> Oracle Corporate Architecture
>>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
>>>> <green-for-email-sig_0.gif> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle
>>>> is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the
>>>> environment
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>