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Meeting Minutes September 2, 2014

From: Kathy Wahlbin <kathy@interactiveaccessibility.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 16:34:18 +0000
To: "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <AA2ADA4972B28E44BEA975C2E84D40592064863B@ORD2MBX02E.mex05.mlsrvr.com>

Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
02 Sep 2014
See also: IRC log<http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-wai-wcag-irc>
Shadi, Bruce_Bailey, Kathy_Wahlbin, Joshue, David_MacDonald, Brent_Shiver, Mike_Elledge, bbailey, jon_avila, AWK, Kenny, alistair, Loretta, cstrobbe, Marc_Johlic, Michael_Cooper, James_Nurthen

  *   Topics<http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html#agenda>
     *   September 2nd Survey - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Sept2nd_2014/<http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item01>
     *   Publication of editors draft<http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item02>
     *   Final review draft of the technique<http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item03>
     *   Response to comment 2963: F89 confusing<http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item04>
     *   Update on Accessibility Support Database Update from Shadi<http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item05>
     *   Institutional Memory Collection for 26th August 2014<http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item06>
     *   Institutional Memory<http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html#item07>
  *   Summary of Action Items<http://www.w3.org/2014/09/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html#ActionSummary>

<trackbot> Date: 02 September 2014
<Joshue> agedna+ Continue Institutional Memory Collection from 26th August 2014 - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IMCAugust2014/

<Joshue> Scribe list: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List

<scribe> scribe: Kathy
September 2nd Survey - https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Sept2nd_2014/

<bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Sept2nd_2014/results

Publication of editors draft
Josh - review of the commnents; jon had comment about h2
<AWK> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2014/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20140902/H2.html

<AWK> Text: Check that the a element contains an img element that has a null alt attribute, that is alt="", or text that supplements the link text and describes the image
Jon - text was confusing in the text for the tests
Jon - is the text that supplements the link text may be confusing
AWK - I think we did clarify it but the language may be mixed up
AWK - we should have the check that the image has null attribute or that the alt text is supplemental. Either one needs to be true
<David> +1
Josh - needs to be cleaned up
<Loretta> +1 David. Let's just fix it.
Jon - some text changes will clarify it
<AWK> Suggestion. remove #1 and keep 2 and change to: Check that the a element contains an img element that has either a null alt attribute value or a value that supplements the link text and describes the image
AWK - suggested text to clarify #1 and #2
Josh - any comments on the suggested text
David - suggestion for an update to the text
<David> Suggestion. remove #1 and keep 2 and change to: Check that the a element contains an img element that has either a null alt attribute value or a alt text value that supplements the link text and describes the image
Josh - any objections to the suggested text
AWK - need to have consistent terms
Jon - fine with either term
Josh - prefers Andrew's version
David - no strong preference
<jon_avila> +1
<Mike_Elledge> +1
<David> +1
<Loretta> +1
<agarrison> Andrews +1
<bbailey> +1 to AWK edit
<Joshue> +1
Josh - any other comments?
Josh - we will use Andrew's suggested text
<Joshue> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2014/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20140902/H2.html

RESOLUTION: publish as amended. Andrew's updated text will be used for H2.
Josh - the change will be integrated in the coming days
RESOLTION: the editor's draft will be published
<Loretta> :-)
<Mike_Elledge> :^)
<bbailey> :)
Josh: both shadi and Alistair have items for the agenda
<AWK> XML documents updated so ready for publication (including diff markup, Michael)
<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Creating_a_conforming_alternate_version_for_a_web_page_designed_with_progressive_enhancement

<bbailey> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Sept2nd_2014/results

Final review draft of the technique
"Creating a conforming alternate version for a web page designed with progressive enhancement"
<agarrison> http://www.edgeatlanta.com/news/national

Alistair - looking for an example
Alistair - example provides different view for low bandwidth
Alistair - this would be the conforming version
AWK - Live example is not necessary for approving it but it would be good to have it. Have one that is simple and easy to use.
Alistair - can put together an example
Josh- any objections to accepting this
David - this is the dumbed down HTML version that provides sites from providing alternative version without having to fix the other one
Josh - please put in some live examples that can be included
AWK - we had a discussion on captioning, the check says to check for a conforming version - this is an example of where we have done this
<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/35422/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140306/2963

Response to comment 2963: F89 confusing
Josh - any objecting to accepting the response?
RESOLUTION: accepted
Update on Accessibility Support Database Update from Shadi
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/dev/

<Joshue> B-)
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/dev/

Shadi - this is an update on the work done on the accessibility support database
Shadi - this has the latest updates
Shadi - we have been working on the workflow
Shadi - when the test cases are ready, they can be uploaded
Shadi - everyone has access as contributor role
Shadi - you have the power to delete test cases so be careful
Shadi - when you get to the page, you can browse and run test cases. You can also submit test case using your W3C account
Shadi - can see published WCAG techniques and editor draft techniques
Shadi - there are two labels: unconfirmed and accepted
Shadi - can add code and files to the test case
Shadi - form has not yet been approved
Shadi - when you go back to the homepage, browse test results
Shadi - can filter to show unconfirmed test cases
Shadi - that is the main change. Still creating functions to add/delete to maintain the database
AWK - where is the unconfirmed test case
Shadi - all of them are unconfirmed
Shadi - are making changes to make it easier
James - I see version numbers but not point releases for the AT
Shadi - we are storing the different versions, so we can roll back results
James - the exact version is important to know if it is supported
Shadi - the versions are dynamic from the database so if the information is provided it will be included
Shadi - can look at this in the environment and people can enter in it
<AWK> I do see Windows 6.1 in the OS list
James - not requiring people to enter in point release values
Shadi - This is automatically being filled in based on what the browser is sending over
James - browsers are sending more information
Shadi - then this is a bug
Shadi - the challenge is the granualarity
Shadi - we are thinking about this
Alistair - the versions need to be stored when the test is done
Alistair - the test cases look manual, are any automated
Alistair - who and when do you envision users to use the tool?
Shadi - test cases are not easily automated; volunteers are needed
Alistair - concentrate on the ones that need to be manually checked
Shadi - this was designed for test cases for manual review
Shadi - this is an attempt to do it using crowd sourcing
Shadi - this could come from the working group as techniques are developed
Shadi - test cases can be entered directly into the tool. This may also encourage people to review
David - found a couple of bugs
Shadi - there is the GitHub list
Shadi - does not include G techniques
David - there are HTML techniques in G
<jamesn> q to ask if you want comments on the accessibility of the system?
Josh - visual look and feel; structure looks good but the color contrast is poor
Shadi - we are happy to take suggestions
Josh - some simple changes could make a difference
Shadi - can log this into GitHub


James - what is the framework used?
Shadi - some user testing has been done
Shadi - let us know about issues
James - the logout button should be a button not a link
James - if it looks like a button visually then it shoud be a button
Shadi - will look into this
Alistair - failure conditions
Shadi - we did not pull them in since the usage would be limited
Shadi - is there a failure that needs a test case
Shadi - this is primarily for techniques
<Joshue> KW: Is mobile included?
Shadi - this will work for mobile
<Joshue> KW: THe Mobile TF is writing techniques and testing, so we could use this right?
<Joshue> SAZ: Yes, that is my hope. Its buggy but workable
<Joshue> SAZ: The WG should start testing
<Joshue> SAZ: As you develop techs, the test cases could be written directly with this tool
<Joshue> SAZ: This will also give the public the chance to contribute.
<Joshue> KW: The Icon fonts need aria-hidden
<Joshue> SAZ: Ok
<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/dev/#/results-technique.html/H4

<Joshue> SAZ: Overview of approaches to linking to techs etc
<Joshue> <discusses design features>
Josh - would you like us to review; where can we help
<jamesn> q to note that the fonts are (I think) in the private use area of unicode so shouldn't need aria-hidden
Shadi - the big question is: Is this tool useful?
Shadi - can be added to the accessibility support area of the techniques
Shadi - we can check in a few weeks
Josh - the more information about the system is null link
Shadi - there will be more information and guides
Josh - when will this be up and running
Shadi - 2-3 weeks
James - the fonts may not need aria-hidden
<agarrison> Back button doesn't seem to work on http://www.w3.org/WAI/accessibility-support/dev/#/log-in.html

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to ask what the situation is regarding future development - resources available?
AWK - future development: what resources are available
Shadi - essentially none
Shadi - bugs will be fixed
Shadi - major features will not be added at this time
AWK - this helps to manage our expectation
Josh - good job, thanks for the update
Shadi - look forward to feedback
Shadi - names are logged in the test cases
Institutional Memory Collection for 26th August 2014
<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IMCAugust2014/results

Institutional Memory
Josh - always good to talk through these
<Loretta> I thought we were supposed to edit the wiki itself.
Josh - AWK added information to the WIKI
Loretta - I did too
Loretta - the last paragraph was what I added
Josh - debate orginally about what was sufficient for this

<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG20/Institutional_Memory/SC_2.4.1

<David> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Main_Page

David - is there a link on the main page to this
Josh - no
<Joshue> lol
AWK - always some amount of debate about the number of links
<David> I added link to main page https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Main_Page

AWK - there is a perception that this is only for screen readers users since the keyboard support is not default in the browsers
<jon_avila> Some people question whether this is relevant to mobile touchscreen devices.
AWK - gets into the WCAG / UUAG
Loretta - a lot discussion about efficient keyboard support / navigation
Josh - now there are other things that we can use to meet this
Loretta - there is usability issues for keyboard users that we did not fit into the technique
Josh - maybe something for later
<jon_avila> There is also applicability for software -- e.g. equivalent to moving between panes of software applications.
Bruce - remembers that this being added from 508 .22(o)
Josh - is there other information that should be added to the WIKI
Josh - look at the second one on page titles
<Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG20/Institutional_Memory/SC_2.4.2

<jon_avila> I asked it.
AWK: jon responded to question on the list about iframes, which made me remember this
... iframe is embedded into the page, this does not apply
... the question was about iframe embedded into the page, what do you do for title
<jon_avila> I found that JAWS 15 and IE will announce the embedded page title over the title attribute on an iFrame if one is present.
<David> +1
AWK: frame does need a title - covered under other success criteria
<jon_avila> could you meet 2.4.2 with an embedded HTML page title if it was accessibility supported and no iframe title.?
Loretta - oriented around navigation orientation issue
Loretta - also added for cognitive impairements
Josh - reading Loretta's comment - page titles do not need to be unique
Bruce - contemporary browser behavior makes this requirement less relevant; harder see the page title
Bruce - this is more difficult requirement for other types of formats
<jon_avila> This topic raises questions around mobile app titles where space is limited and hybrid or native apps may not show titles. Applying WCAG to non-web ICT indicates page titles are equivalent to app titles.
Josh - this is the first thing screen reader reads
AWK - trend is to show smaller pieces of the title
<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to ask bruce what formats doc title is hard for
<Joshue> KW: Mobile also has shorter titles
Bruce - filename gets confused with document title
<jon_avila> In Safari on iOS I see iOS displaying the url and not displaying the page title.
Jon - on iPhone Safari shows the URL and there is no page title
James - can see the page title in the tab view
Jon - both have consequences to mobile apps
Jon- do all mobile app pages need a title
Josh - out of time
<Mike_Elledge> bye!
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 2 September 2014 16:34:45 UTC

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