- From: RichardWarren <richard.warren@userite.com>
- Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2014 22:55:06 +0100
- To: "Paul J. Adam" <paul.adam@deque.com>
- Cc: "WCAG" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <F17DEB7EACA748FEB7D2ADFC2160E24E@DaddyPC>
Paul,
I am not sure about Jaws or SupaNova – but I have just checked with the latest version of the NVDA screen reader which a couple of our testers use and it DOES NOT announce that a new window is opened when following a link with target=”_blank”
NVDA is available at http://www.nvaccess.org/ if you want to try it yourself
Richard
From: Paul J. Adam
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 6:12 PM
To: Katie Haritos-Shea
Cc: Jonathan Avila ; Christophe Strobbe ; WCAG
Subject: Re: SC failure for opening new window without prior notice ?
I didn't think that clicking a link was changing a setting though. Users expect links to open URLs. A smart screen reader could look at target=_blank and tell them that it opens a new window, or the browser could do that.
I think it's more of a best practice than a requirement.
It's an interesting debate though, we've had it before at work and determined it to be a AAA violation which clients rarely ask for.
I think it's not really AAA either though. Still just a best practice. I always recommend best practices, however, just don't require them.
3.2.5 Change on Request: Changes of context are initiated only by user request or a mechanism is available to turn off such changes. (Level AAA)
If a user clicks a link they are requesting to change their context.
Paul J. Adam
Accessibility Evangelist
www.deque.com
On Jul 9, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Katie Haritos-Shea <ryladog@gmail.com> wrote:
In my mind, the normative reference WCAG 2 says "3.2.2 Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behavior before using the component. (Level A)"
On that page the user interface component definition has "Note 2: User interface components include form elements and links as well as components generated by scripts."
In the case where that link opens a new window or scripted overlay, and this is not identified, I would interpret this to be a clear fail of 3.3.2 if the user is not notified in advance (by AT/UA and/or with programmatically associated text). Clicking on a link is changing the link setting/state to active - and a/the back button will not return the user to where they were if/when activated.
I would not rely on the How to Meet, Understanding or Techniques docs for this answer because there is conflicting information within those documents and they are not the normative reference. Which takes me back to the WCAG 2 Standard requirement where it is clear that a link is a UI component.
UA or AT issue aside....
* katie *
Katie Haritos-Shea
Senior Accessibility SME (WCAG/Section 508/ADA)
703-371-5545
ryladog@gmail.com
People may forget exactly what it was that you said or did,
but people will never forget how you made them feel.......
Our scars remind us of where we have been........they do not have to dictate where we are going.
On Wed, Jul 9, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
Ø When you use magnification and a new screen pops up outside the magnified area, and you don't notice it because it's outside that area, isn't that an accessibility issue?
This sounds like a bug in the screen magnification software and should be reported to the vendor of the product.
Jonathan
From: Christophe Strobbe [mailto:strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 8:59 AM
To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Cc: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: Re: SC failure for opening new window without prior notice ?
On 9/07/2014 14:53, Steve Faulkner wrote:
as a user you get nothing,
points to it being usability issue
If an issue disproportionately affects persons with disabilities, it is not just a usability issue. When you use magnification and a new screen pops up outside the magnified area, and you don't notice it because it's outside that area, isn't that an accessibility issue?
Best regards,
Christophe
--
Regards
SteveF
HTML 5.1
On 9 July 2014 13:44, Christophe Strobbe <strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de> wrote:
On 9/07/2014 13:48, Hoffman, Allen wrote:
Heuristically speaking:
Why wouldn’t a blind user know a new window was opened?
In at least three screen readers I use I don’t seem to miss this information.
Standardsly speaking:
The window handle is available for assistive technology use from the OS or user-agent using the OS, so I’m not clear why this is a content issue and not a user-agent issue, especially since how such windows are handled is nearly universally configurable now in browsers. Since the user-agent knows, the information is obviously available, so the assistive technology should be able to pick this up easily enough without specific additional content cues.
What am I missing?
If you argue only from the point of view of screen readers, you miss all other users with disabilities; screen reader users represent a minority of people with disabilities. That's why I checked what 7 different browsers do with 'target="_blank"'; as a sighted keyboard user, for example, you get exactly nothing. As a magnifier user, you get nothing.
Best regards,
Christophe
From: RichardWarren [mailto:richard.warren@userite.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 7:05 AM
To: Aurélien Levy; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: Re: SC failure for opening new window without prior notice ?
Aurelien,
When a blind user activates a link that opens a new window without prior warning they do not know that a new window has been opened and thus their “browser history” renewed. Thus when they press the key for their screen reader to go back to the previous page nothing happens. Eventually they learn that we need to “close the current window” if we want to go back. However if they have followed as series of “blank-targets” this becomes a very hit-or-miss approach.
So in practical terms target="_blank" without a warning is a barrier and thus a failure of WCAG level A
SC 3.2.2 seems to cover this adequately. for example when it talks about form submission buttons being clearly marked as such, after all a form submission button is just a link to another page or state just as a target=”_blank”. The intention is clear here and it really is not practicable to provide examples of every possible situation where a change of context might be introduced. The over-riding essential is that the page operates in a predictable manner.
Richard
From: Aurélien Levy
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 11:10 AM
To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: Re: SC failure for opening new window without prior notice ?
Based on F37 alone, we cannot definitively conclude whether target="_blank" without a warning is a failure. It is just not part of *this* failure. In the absence of failure descriptions that specifically mention Aurélien's case, we have only the success criteria to go by. Whether this case fails SC 3.2.2 hinges on the interpretation of "changing the setting of any user interface component": does activating a link constitute a change in a setting? A link is a UI component, but does activating it constitute a change in its setting? (Nothing that you can retrieve from the DOM, as far as I know, unlike certain properties of form fields.) So it seems hard to argue that Aurélien's example fails SC 3.2.2.
However, the code fails SC3.2.5; there is even a failure for this: <http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140408/F22>.
Best regards,
Christophe
I agree with that but it strange because the understanding of 3.2.5 state :
Change on Request: Changes of context are initiated only by user request or a mechanism is available to turn off such changes. (Level AAA)
and we have this Note: Clicking on a link is an example of an action that is "initiated only by user request."
So nothing ask about prior warning. It may be better to have something like :
Change on Request: Changes of context are initiated only by user request with a prior warning or a mechanism is available to turn off such changes. (Level AAA)
or
Change on Request: Changes of context are initiated only by user request or a mechanism is available to turn off, warn the the user of such changes. (Level AAA)
Regarding SC 2.4.4 I ask the question because there is an example of using title to warn the user of opening new windows http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140408/H33 so if not warning the user is not a failure of SC 2.4.4 maybe it's best to change this example as well
Aurélien
Richard Warren
Technical Manager
Website Auditing Limited (Userite)
http://www.userite.com
-- Christophe StrobbeAkademischer MitarbeiterAdaptive User Interfaces Research GroupHochschule der MedienNobelstraße 1070569 StuttgartTel. +49 711 8923 2749 "La vie est courte, hélas! et je n'ai pas encore lu tous mes livres!" (d'après Mallarmé).
-- Christophe StrobbeAkademischer MitarbeiterAdaptive User Interfaces Research GroupHochschule der MedienNobelstraße 1070569 StuttgartTel. +49 711 8923 2749 "La vie est courte, hélas! et je n'ai pas encore lu tous mes livres!" (d'après Mallarmé).
Richard Warren
Technical Manager
Website Auditing Limited (Userite)
http://www.userite.com
...........
Received on Wednesday, 9 July 2014 21:55:35 UTC