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Re: SUGGESTIONS ON LABELLEDBY

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 15:07:00 +0000
Message-ID: <CA+ri+V=LZmnYfBgEv45U=oxvGkj+LPfdvVTmb9W85gOH_qi6Og@mail.gmail.com>
To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
Cc: Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, w3c-wai-pf@w3.org
Hi David,

OK I would suggest if such a technique is published it should be with
warnings about its use.


regards
Steve

On 25 January 2013 15:04, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> FWIW - One use case James put forward last week was where a complicated
> legacy application was getting updated for WCAG and changing the node would
> break the application, based on various scripted calls referring to
> previous nodes. Placing an Aria heading on it instead it would speak to AT
> and not change the value of the node, and break the application...****
>
> ** **
>
> Cheers****
>
> David MacDonald****
>
> * *
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.***
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* January-25-13 9:31 AM
> *To:* Sailesh Panchang
> *Cc:* WCAG; w3c-wai-pf@w3.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: SUGGESTIONS ON LABELLEDBY****
>
> ** **
>
> FYI
>
> This markup is incorrect
>
> <ul role="navigation" aria-label="secondary">
>
>
> navigation is not an allowed role on ul [1]
>
> Its use overrides the list role. it doesn't become a navigation list.
>
>
> [1]
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#sec-implicit-aria-semantics
>
>
> I agree that providing examples of role=heading use for HTML is unecessary
> and counter productive as there is no situation that I can think of where a
> HTML heading could not be used.
>
> regards
> SteveF****
>
> On 25 January 2013 14:17, Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com> wrote:*
> ***
>
> Look at it this way:
> If the index to a book contained only:
> Chapter: Horses
> Chapter: Dogs
> Chapter: Birds
>
> Would that be useful or would
> Chapter 1: Horses
> Chapter 2: Dogs
> Chapter 3: Birds
> be more useful?
>
> One could say go to chapter 3 or in chapter 3  there is bla bla bla.
> Likewise, if one navigated by landmark roles  and the role had the same
> name as the text in an h<n> tag at the start of that landmark region, then
> what value is the author really adding?
> Headings properly marked up expose structure and most screen reader users
> (Webaim survey) rely on heading navigation a lot.
> One uses landmark navigation for a completely different reason. The
> landmarks are a generic structure and one will find a role=main / search
> /etc. on any page but Horses for sale' will be specific to a Web page and
> is already being exposed by the h<n> tag in the example that triggered my
> first comment 2 days ago.
> So if the section or article element used an aria-label= 1 / 2 / 3 or some
> similar label, the user might be able to determine there are n sections
> under the heading 'Horses for sale' for instance. And that might be useful.
> If the landmark role and h<n> tag is exposing the same stuff  then the
> developer will do himself a service by cutting the code and spare users too
> from repetitive content.
> Regardless of which navigation technique I used, if I heard the same
> stuff, I'll simply stop using one of them.
> And it will not be h-navigation.****
>
> > simple use case is where a heading has been used within a widget, that
> adequately describes the function of the widget.****
>
> So what you call a used case maybe one but one that real users will seldom
> find useful and simply wonder why does this thing repeat stuff all over the
> place.
> That is one of the underlying theme for WCAG 2' HTML H2 technique: avoid
> duplication.
> Thanks and regards,****
>
> Sailesh Panchang
>
> --- On Wed, 1/23/13, Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie> wrote:
>
>
> From: Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>
> Subject: Re: SUGGESTIONS ON LABELLEDBY****
>
> To: "Sailesh Panchang" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>
> Cc: "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "w3c-wai-pf@w3.org" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
> Date: Wednesday, January 23, 2013, 4:05 PM****
>
>
>
> Sailesh Panchang wrote:
> > I look at this code and wonder what one is trying to accomplish:
> > Use ARIA for the sake of using it?
> > Heading tags expose structure and one can use them  suitably to do so.
> > If the regions marked by aria roles has the  same labels as the content
> of an h-tag, what is one accomplishing?
> > These are useless for sighted users anyway.
> > For assistive technology users (mainly vision impaired ones) this is
> plain duplication.
> > It is more useful if the label text described what  one sees visually
> but is not available by other markup, like
> > <ul role="navigation" aria-label="secondary">
> > So when one tells me go to the secondary navigation or main navigation,
> I know what they refer to.
> > If someone were to say go to the 'Horses on Sale' or 'Mares' sections, I
> can do so easily using h-navigation.
> > The code sample below  is unnecessary code I think.
>
> Thanks for the feedback. OTTOMH, A simple use case is where a heading has
> been used within a widget, that adequately describes the function of the
> widget. Therefore the user has both a possible landmark labelled with
> aria-labelledby if there is an existing heading, as well as the heading
> itself. It's a valid usecase to my mind.
>
> Cheers
>
> Josh
>
>
> ****
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html>****
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Friday, 25 January 2013 15:08:18 GMT

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