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From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 10:04:17 -0500
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP70416A718706453D3467F0FE1B0@phx.gbl>
To: "'Steve Faulkner'" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, "'Sailesh Panchang'" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>
CC: "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
FWIW - One use case James put forward last week was where a complicated
legacy application was getting updated for WCAG and changing the node would
break the application, based on various scripted calls referring to previous
nodes. Placing an Aria heading on it instead it would speak to AT and not
change the value of the node, and break the application...



David MacDonald


CanAdapt Solutions Inc.

  Adapting the web to all users

            Including those with disabilities

 <http://www.can-adapt.com/> www.Can-Adapt.com


From: Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com] 
Sent: January-25-13 9:31 AM
To: Sailesh Panchang
Cc: WCAG; w3c-wai-pf@w3.org



This markup is incorrect

<ul role="navigation" aria-label="secondary">

navigation is not an allowed role on ul [1]

Its use overrides the list role. it doesn't become a navigation list.


I agree that providing examples of role=heading use for HTML is unecessary
and counter productive as there is no situation that I can think of where a
HTML heading could not be used.


On 25 January 2013 14:17, Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com> wrote:

Look at it this way:
If the index to a book contained only:
Chapter: Horses
Chapter: Dogs
Chapter: Birds

Would that be useful or would
Chapter 1: Horses
Chapter 2: Dogs
Chapter 3: Birds
be more useful?

One could say go to chapter 3 or in chapter 3  there is bla bla bla.
Likewise, if one navigated by landmark roles  and the role had the same name
as the text in an h<n> tag at the start of that landmark region, then what
value is the author really adding?
Headings properly marked up expose structure and most screen reader users
(Webaim survey) rely on heading navigation a lot.
One uses landmark navigation for a completely different reason. The
landmarks are a generic structure and one will find a role=main / search
/etc. on any page but Horses for sale' will be specific to a Web page and is
already being exposed by the h<n> tag in the example that triggered my first
comment 2 days ago.
So if the section or article element used an aria-label= 1 / 2 / 3 or some
similar label, the user might be able to determine there are n sections
under the heading 'Horses for sale' for instance. And that might be useful.
If the landmark role and h<n> tag is exposing the same stuff  then the
developer will do himself a service by cutting the code and spare users too
from repetitive content.
Regardless of which navigation technique I used, if I heard the same stuff,
I'll simply stop using one of them.
And it will not be h-navigation.

> simple use case is where a heading has been used within a widget, that
adequately describes the function of the widget.

So what you call a used case maybe one but one that real users will seldom
find useful and simply wonder why does this thing repeat stuff all over the
That is one of the underlying theme for WCAG 2' HTML H2 technique: avoid
Thanks and regards,

Sailesh Panchang

--- On Wed, 1/23/13, Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie> wrote:

From: Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>

To: "Sailesh Panchang" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>
Cc: "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "w3c-wai-pf@w3.org" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
Date: Wednesday, January 23, 2013, 4:05 PM

Sailesh Panchang wrote:
> I look at this code and wonder what one is trying to accomplish:
> Use ARIA for the sake of using it?
> Heading tags expose structure and one can use them  suitably to do so.
> If the regions marked by aria roles has the  same labels as the content of
an h-tag, what is one accomplishing?
> These are useless for sighted users anyway.
> For assistive technology users (mainly vision impaired ones) this is plain
> It is more useful if the label text described what  one sees visually but
is not available by other markup, like
> <ul role="navigation" aria-label="secondary">
> So when one tells me go to the secondary navigation or main navigation, I
know what they refer to.
> If someone were to say go to the 'Horses on Sale' or 'Mares' sections, I
can do so easily using h-navigation.
> The code sample below  is unnecessary code I think.

Thanks for the feedback. OTTOMH, A simple use case is where a heading has
been used within a widget, that adequately describes the function of the
widget. Therefore the user has both a possible landmark labelled with
aria-labelledby if there is an existing heading, as well as the heading
itself. It's a valid usecase to my mind.



Received on Friday, 25 January 2013 15:04:58 UTC

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