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Re: Query on technique H43

From: Chris Beer <chris@e-beer.net.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 11:22:31 +1000
Message-Id: <16210D2A-2E7B-4258-97EF-5D7EFB88ED54@e-beer.net.au>
Cc: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
To: Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com>
From a logical standpoint, to meet WCAG, technically BOTH tables would need header row/cells, captions and summary.

Re: A reference: Even if there is no reference about structuring multiple tables, it does say in the spec for tables that they should not be used for layout.

The HTML working group has adopted the "Allow tables to be used for presentational purposes" via the ARIA presentation role (ISSUE 130 - 10 March 2011) however I'm not sure the WAI has evaluated the flow on effect of this decision at this point.

Best practice would dictate using CSS for the presentation anyway - I find the "we need it for visual presentation" argument to be pretty week but then I don't know te technology platform and any limitations you are working under.

Cheer

Chris Beer (iPhone)

On 08/04/2011, at 10:17, Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com> wrote:

> James,
> The  specs on that page relate to the markup for a table... not multiple tables.
> The headers-id method is suggested for a table in which  multiple rows / columns contains  header cell data for the data cells of that table.
> If it is a single row of header cells, all cells can be marked up as TH and the data rows would follow as rows of the same table ... not a separate table.
> I have seen more than one company resort to the 2-table technique you describe and I had to flag them out and get them fixed.    
> One cannot programatically  or semantically  relate the contents of one table with another. 
> It is like having a LABEL element in one FORM element and associating it with an INPUT control in another FORM.
> Regards,
> Sailesh Panchang
> 
> --- On Thu, 4/7/11, James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com> wrote:
> 
> From: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
> Subject: Re: Query on technique H43
> To: "Sailesh Panchang" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>
> Cc: "WCAG" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> Date: Thursday, April 7, 2011, 5:40 PM
> 
> 
> 
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> 
>    Sailesh,
> 
> 
> 
>    Where in
>    http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/tables.html#adef-headers
>    does it state that the headers must be in the same table? I can't
>    find this in the link you referenced.
> 
>    (fyi I would happily recommend this team not to do this if I could
>    back this up with a solid reason - but I cannot come up with one
>    from WCAG2)
> 
> 
> 
>    Regards,
> 
>    James
> 
> 
> 
>    On 4/7/2011 2:24 PM, Sailesh Panchang wrote:
> 
>      James,
> You need the row / column containing the header cells in the same data table. 
> See http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/tables.html#adef-headers
> So it fails SC 1.3.1. In any case the headers row and the first table  is providing structure for the content that follows and is not mere "presentation".
> For large tables, implement pagination links ... show next 20 or whatever.
> Sailesh Panchang
> Web Accessibility Specialist
> www.deque.com
> --- On Thu, 4/7/11, James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
> Subject: Query on technique H43
> To: "WCAG" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> Date: Thursday, April 7, 2011, 2:56 PM
> 
> 
> Hi,
> A team I am working with is using a technique I am unsure about to mark up their data tables. They have their table split into 2 tables in the HTML markup, one for the header row (which has been marked with role=presentation) and one for the data content. They claim they need to do this in order to obtain the visual layout they require.
> 
> The header cells in the first table have ids associated with them which are then being referenced from the headers attribute of cells in the second table.
> 
> I can't see any reference in H43 that the cells referenced as a header must be in the same table so it would seem that this would pass 1.3.1 due to meeting H43. Is my interpretation of this correct? If this shouldn't pass H43 I would appreciate the technique being clarified such that this is made more clear.
> 
> -- Regards, James
> 
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>    -- 
> 
>      Regards, James
> 
> 
> 
>        James Nurthen | Project Lead, Accessibility
> 
>          Phone: +1 6505066781 |
>          Mobile: +1 4159871918 
> 
>          Oracle Corporate Architecture
> 
>          500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
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Received on Friday, 8 April 2011 01:22:38 GMT

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