W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-gl@w3.org > January to March 2007

RE: Starting over (was: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning, and language disabilities)

From: Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2007 00:27:01 -0500
To: "'lisa'" <lisa@ubaccess.com>, "'Slatin, John M'" <john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu>, "'David MacDonald'" <befree@magma.ca>, "'Bailey, Bruce'" <Bruce.Bailey@ed.gov>, "'j.chetwynd'" <j.chetwynd@btinternet.com>
Cc: "'Loretta Guarino Reid'" <lorettaguarino@google.com>, "'Sofia Celic'" <Sofia.Celic@visionaustralia.org>, "'Jan Dekelver'" <jan.dekelver@khk.be>, "'Chuck Hitchcock'" <chitchcock@cast.org>, "'Hiroshi Kawamura'" <hkawa@rehab.go.jp>, "'Gez Lemon'" <gez.lemon@gmail.com>, "'Clayton Lewis'" <clayton.lewis@colorado.edu>, "'Gian Sampson-Wild'" <gian@tkh.com.au>, "'Keith Smith'" <k.smith@bild.org.uk>, "'Roberto Scano'" <rscano@iwa-italy.org>, "'Stephen Shore'" <Tumbalaika@aol.com>, "'Nancy Ward'" <nward@thedesk.info>, "'Paul Bowman'" <pbowman@gmu.edu>, "'John Slatin'" <jslatin@mail.utexas.edu>, "'Elbert Johns'" <ejohns@thearclink.org>, "'Michael Cooper'" <cooper@w3.org>, "'Judy Brewer'" <jbrewer@w3.org>, "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <029f01c76c42$bc285670$6002d746@NC84301>

Thanks Lisa,

I agree.

Roadmap....   hadn't thought of it that way but much of what needs to be
discussed would fit that approach quite well.  And help people see it isn't
a matter of just what is possible today - but what can be tomorrow - and
what we need to  do to get there.

Gregg
 -- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: lisa [mailto:lisa@ubaccess.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:09 PM
> To: 'Gregg Vanderheiden'; 'Slatin, John M'; 'David MacDonald'; 'Bailey,
> Bruce'; 'j.chetwynd'
> Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy
> Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Michael Cooper';
> 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> Subject: RE: Starting over (was: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to
> cognitive, learning, and language disabilities)
>
> Hi Gregg
>
> I think this is a hugely important point.
>  WCGA has concentrated on Type 1 techniques - appropriate for all content
> on
> all websites.
>
> We have done a good job for them.
>
> My main concern is that people will think we have done all the types
> techniques and we need to be clear that we have not, as yet, done that.
>
> Also we could be making techniques as part of a full roadmap that enabled
> content  appropriate for all content on all websites to be ADAPTABLE for
> people with cognitive disabilities. content
>
> That would enable all content on all websites to be converted at the user
> end to a version designed specifically for people with cognitive
> disabilities
>
> Technologies could include use of some standard CSS classes, RDF etc.
>
> However that will be a long effort , it will need planning and structure
>
> but that is really what I would like to see happen.
>
>
>
> All the best
> Lisa
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:53 PM
> To: 'Slatin, John M'; 'lisa'; 'David MacDonald'; 'Bailey, Bruce';
> 'j.chetwynd'
> Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy
> Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Michael Cooper';
> 'Judy
> Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> Subject: RE: Starting over (was: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to
> cognitive, learning, and language disabilities)
>
> Thanks John,
>
>    I think maybe we should be dividing our discussion into three
> categories
>
> Type 1) techniques appropriate for all content on all websites
>
> Type 2) techniques for web sites designed specifically for people with
> cognitive disabilities but intended to be accessible by all including
> people
> who also have other disabilities.
>
> Type 3) techniques for web sites designed specifically for people with
> cognitive disabilities and not intended for people with other disabilities
> to access.
>
> We need to be documenting all three types of techniques.
>
> But we will get into all sorts of arguments if we confuse Type 1 with Type
> 2
> (or 3).  That is if people are talking about what can be done on special
> sites with what could be done on all sites.
>
> There is much to be done in all 3 types.  But we need to keep which type
> we
> are referring to straight in our discussions I think to not get confused.
> Some of the examples have been of things that could be done on all sites.
> Some are special sites.  All are good ideas for different applications.
>
>
> Gregg
>  -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Slatin, John M [mailto:john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:17 PM
> > To: lisa; David MacDonald; Bailey, Bruce; j.chetwynd
> > Cc: Loretta Guarino Reid; Sofia Celic; Jan Dekelver; Chuck Hitchcock;
> > Hiroshi Kawamura; Gez Lemon; Clayton Lewis; Gian Sampson-Wild; Keith
> > Smith; Roberto Scano; Stephen Shore; Nancy Ward; Paul Bowman; John
> > Slatin; Elbert Johns; Gregg Vanderheiden; Michael Cooper; Judy Brewer;
> > WCAG
> > Subject: Starting over (was: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to
> > cognitive, learning, and language disabilities)
> >
> > Can we restart this discussion? We'll lose our focus if people get
> > angry.
> >
> > This is a difficult issue. I think everyone on this list wants to find
> > good solutions. We're working hard to understand each other.
> >
> > I'm asking for help understanding the sites that use Bliss or other
> > symbol languages. I have been to the sites that Lisa listed, and I've
> > chosen the links to display Bliss or other symbol languages.
> >
> > I didn't understand the results. In some cases my screen reader spoke
> > most of the words and phrases twice.
> >
> > This may have been because the content was presented in
> > *both* English and Bliss, so the screen reader read both the English
> > text and the alt text for the individual Bliss symbols.
> >
> > It was very difficult to understand!
> >
> > In another case I couldn't tell whether the content changed when I
> > selected Bliss. Maybe that was because it worked
> > correctly-- that is, maybe the content was presented only in Bliss,
> > and JAWS read it like English because it was using alt text.
> >
> > I also visited one of the sites that Jonathan mentioned as an example
> > that uses icons effectively. My screen reader couldn't handle it.
> >
> > I think something useful will emerge from all this. But we need to be
> > patient with each other and explain as best we can.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> > "Good design is accessible design."
> >
> > Dr. John M. Slatin, Director
> > Accessibility Institute
> > University of Texas at Austin
> > FAC 248C
> > 1 University Station G9600
> > Austin, TX 78712
> > ph 512-495-4288, fax 512-495-4524
> > email john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu
> > Web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lisa [mailto:lisa@ubaccess.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:22 PM
> > To: 'David MacDonald'; 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'j.chetwynd'
> > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> > Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> > Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy
> > Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
> > Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
> > and language disabilities
> >
> >
> >  >Could you send a link to the RDF document? I don't remember seeing
> > that in completed form.
> >
> > It never was in a final form
> > it was put on the non critical list and no one had time to review it.
> >
> > >The Peebo site requires SVG which requires a special
> > download for most
> > browsers. The messages that the browsers give are
> > >>not too friendly to cognitive users. They give a warning
> > that Active X
> > controls can be dangerous. Many people with cognitive
> > >disabilities would not know what to do with that, I would say.
> >
> >
> > and yet many real people have enjoyed using it - people who can not
> > use 99.9% of WCAG accessible sites
> >
> >
> > >The DART site uses language and vocabulary (at least in
> > English) which
> > is
> > quite advanced.
> >
> > your need to select the option in BLISS or pictures.
> >
> > I sent you these links because you seemed to want to see what was
> > being done
> > - what products are available etc, so you could understand how many
> > people with disabilities use the web outside the WCAG communities.
> >
> > If you prefer to pick holes in how they are doing it, that is Ok too,
> > but I don't see that will help anyone.
> >
> >
> > Lisa
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David MacDonald [mailto:befree@magma.ca]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:32 PM
> > To: 'lisa'; 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'j.chetwynd'
> > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> > Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> > Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy
> > Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
> > Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
> > and language disabilities
> >
> > Hi Lisa
> >
> > >>and these techniques came of the to do list until after last call.
> >
> > I don't think this is an entirely fair statement. I looked at the
> > Telecommunications Problems and Design Strategies for People with
> > Cognitive Disabilities report and printed out the excerpts you listed.
> > I compared
> > our
> > guidelines to those recommendations. I think that we've done much of
> > what the report was recommending, to the extent that it applies to the
> > web to the degree that it was testable. Also, many of the untestable
> > techniques in that document are listed advisory as advisory in the
> > guidelines.
> > Much of that
> > was
> > due to your hard work and contribution while on the group.
> >
> > The primary reference for the Telecommunications document was the
> > TRACE centre research which is active on our committee.
> >
> > Could you send a link to the RDF document? I don't remember seeing
> > that in completed form.
> >
> > I personally do not have a problem with renaming advisory techniques
> > "advisory and/or untestable techniques". The conformance section says
> > that advisory techniques consist of helpful advice and techniques that
> > are untestable. But I'm ok with saying that in every section. Of
> > course it would depend on consensus.
> >
> > I did a brief examination of the sites you sent as models for
> > cognitive accessibility.
> >
> > -The Peebo site requires SVG which requires a special download for
> > most browsers. The messages that the browsers give are not too
> > friendly to cognitive users. They give a warning that Active X
> > controls can be dangerous. Many people with cognitive disabilities
> > would not know what to do with that, I would say. Once I finally
> > installed SVG, I went to the web portals page, and was met with a
> > password dialogue box. I think that would confuse many people with
> > cognitive disabilities. When I backed out of the unauthorized page
> > warning, back to the homepage, I tried to link to other pages ("forms,
> > splat, radio etc.) but the links were dead.
> >
> > -I went to handicom. I didn't find anything on the site itself that
> > seemed particularly oriented to help people with cognitive issues.
> > They sell Bliss, but they don't really use bliss on the web site.
> > There was rotating gif on the home page, which for me we distracting.
> > The language of the site is not particularly oriented to people below
> > secondary level education. Here's an
> > excerpt:
> >
> > "Handicom focuses its activities on the tangent plane between handicap
> > and computer. Tomorrow's techniques are used for the development of
> > adapted computer and communication tools. It's mainly software we
> > make."
> >
> > -The DART site uses language and vocabulary (at least in
> > English) which
> > is
> > quite advanced.
> >
> > --The ISSAC site uses icons on the nav bar and bliss symbols beside
> > links.
> > Which is good but again the language at least in English, is quite
> > academic.
> >
> >
> > -The Widget site uses icons but not much else on it was specifically
> > gears to Cognitive. Again the language doesn't seem geared to people
> > with cognitive disabilities. He's an exceprt.
> >
> > "2,000 new diverse and relevant symbols for WWS2000 and In Print to
> > bring resources to life."
> >
> > None of the sites listed meet the guidelines set out in the
> > 1991 report
> > that
> > was point as a guide. Nor would I expect them to.
> >
> > However, one common feature that I see on these sites that seems
> > particularly geared to cognitive issues is the use of symbols. Which
> > it think is a great idea and I think we should create a technique
> > under
> > 2.4.2
> > titled
> >
> > "using pictures or symbols compliment link text"
> >
> > I think it is perfectly fine to say more research can to be done in
> > this area. With cognitive issues I would say, we are currently where
> > blind people were 30 years ago. And it's hard work from pioneers like
> > you that is moving it forward.
> >
> >
> >
> > David MacDonald
> >
> > access empowers people...
> >         ...barriers disable them...
> >
> > www.eramp.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
> > Behalf Of lisa
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:56 AM
> > To: 'David MacDonald'; 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'j.chetwynd'
> > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> > Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> > Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy
> > Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
> > Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
> > and language disabilities
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi David
> >
> > This discussion has proved my point. That it is not a lack of research
> > that is the primary problem for accessibility for cognitive
> > disabilities, but other factors - such as adoptability, interest
> > "appropriateness" etc..
> >
> > It is essential that people do not think that following WCAG is the
> > best they can do for these communities.
> >
> > Look  at the work of WAACI  and http://www.handicom.nl/  and
> > http://peepo.com/  and ld-web.org. That will help you get an idea of
> > what is doable - today.
> >
> >  WCAG does not contain guidelines that will help you achieve this type
> > of accessibility.
> >
> > In terms of commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based
> > accessibility - no I do not know of any. There is no legislation to
> > drive them, and the discrimination against these groups are huge.
> >
> > BY the way, the 2001 email was just a sample. I spent years writing
> > and writing test criteria's and guidelines for accessibility for
> > cognitive disabilities. I wrote a CSS techniques, and an RDF
> > techniques document and rewrote the success criteria a bunch of times.
> > We need to view the archives to glean the different approaches and
> > suggestions from over the years, Research existing successes and
> > methodologies, perform a gap analysis etc.....
> >
> > A few sticky plasters is not what is needed. We as standard writers
> > know that. We need a consistent integrated roadmap for access for
> > cognitive disabilities. We have had years to do it but we decided to
> > make it low priority, and these techniques came of the to do list
> > until after last call.
> > We can not now claim that we did the best we could.
> >
> > All the best
> > Lisa
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David MacDonald [mailto:befree@magma.ca]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:04 PM
> > To: 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'lisa'; 'j.chetwynd'
> > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> > Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> > Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy
> > Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
> > Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
> > and language disabilities
> >
> > >>>For an example of a government site that is oriented
> > towards people
> > >>>with
> > cognitive disabilities:The Medicaid Reference Desk
> > http://thedesk.info/
> >
> > A prime feature for a cognitive person would be to be able to ask a
> > question, I would say. But the link to the "ask question" page gives a
> > 404
> > link error. And it appears to have been like that since 2002.
> >
> > On the home page, the additional info summaries above the link list do
> > not work for keyboard users, only for mouse users.
> >
> > Any page that is accessed from the home page comes up in a tiny window
> > with all the Chrome from the browser. A cognitive person can't find
> > the back button. Having the opened window tiny like that means that
> > there are other visible windows on the computer screen, which would be
> > confusing for many people with cognitive disabilities.
> >
> > David MacDonald
> >
> > access empowers people...
> >         ...barriers disable them...
> >
> > www.eramp.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
> > Behalf Of Bailey, Bruce
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:56 AM
> > To: David MacDonald; lisa; j.chetwynd
> > Cc: Loretta Guarino Reid; Sofia Celic; Jan Dekelver; Chuck Hitchcock;
> > Hiroshi Kawamura; Gez Lemon; Clayton Lewis; Gian Sampson-Wild; Keith
> > Smith; Roberto Scano; Stephen Shore; Nancy Ward; Paul Bowman; John
> > Slatin; Elbert Johns; Gregg Vanderheiden; Michael Cooper; Judy Brewer;
> > WCAG
> > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
> > and language disabilities
> >
> >
> > For an example of a government site that is oriented towards people
> > with cognitive disabilities:
> > The Medicaid Reference Desk
> > http://thedesk.info/
> >
> > Nancy Ward and Clayton Lewis have been particularly involved with that
> > project.  I did not find concept maps however.
> >
> > The claim to Triple A status (with a link to CAST no less) is
> > troubling.
> >
> > P.S.:  Follows is a link to the HTML version of the PDF mentioned in
> > Lisa's post from 2001.
> > Telecommunications Problems and Design Strategies for People with
> > Cognitive Disabilities http://www.wid.org/archives/telecom/
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org
> > > [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of David MacDonald
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:23 AM
> > > To: 'lisa'; '"~:'' ????????????"'
> > > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> > > Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> > > Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen
> > Shore'; 'Nancy
> >
> > > Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
> > > Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> > > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to
> > cognitive, learning,
> >
> > > and language disabilities
> > >
> > > Hi Lisa
> > >
> > > Can you provide a link to a successfully implemented
> > concept map on a
> > > commercial (or private site)? I would like to see one in
> > use. Thanks.
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
> > 3/12/2007
> > 7:19 PM
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
> > 3/12/2007
> > 7:19 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/722 - Release Date:
> > 3/14/2007
> > 3:38 PM
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/722 - Release Date:
> > 3/14/2007
> > 3:38 PM
> >
> >
>
>
Received on Thursday, 22 March 2007 15:26:12 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Monday, 7 December 2009 10:47:49 GMT