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RE: Starting over (was: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning, and language disabilities)

From: <boland@nist.gov>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:05:16 -0400
Message-ID: <1174442716.460092dc4fabd@webmail.nist.gov>
To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org

Are Types 1, 2, and 3 truely mutually exclusive?  Can one discriminate between 
Types 2 and 3 on the basis of intent?  

Tim Boland NIST

  Quoting Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>:

> 
> Thanks John,
> 
>    I think maybe we should be dividing our discussion into three categories
> 
> Type 1) techniques appropriate for all content on all websites
> 
> Type 2) techniques for web sites designed specifically for people with
> cognitive disabilities but intended to be accessible by all including people
> who also have other disabilities.
> 
> Type 3) techniques for web sites designed specifically for people with
> cognitive disabilities and not intended for people with other disabilities
> to access.
> 
> We need to be documenting all three types of techniques.
> 
> But we will get into all sorts of arguments if we confuse Type 1 with Type 2
> (or 3).  That is if people are talking about what can be done on special
> sites with what could be done on all sites.
> 
> There is much to be done in all 3 types.  But we need to keep which type we
> are referring to straight in our discussions I think to not get confused.
> Some of the examples have been of things that could be done on all sites.
> Some are special sites.  All are good ideas for different applications.
> 
> 
> Gregg
>  -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Slatin, John M [mailto:john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:17 PM
> > To: lisa; David MacDonald; Bailey, Bruce; j.chetwynd
> > Cc: Loretta Guarino Reid; Sofia Celic; Jan Dekelver; Chuck
> > Hitchcock; Hiroshi Kawamura; Gez Lemon; Clayton Lewis; Gian
> > Sampson-Wild; Keith Smith; Roberto Scano; Stephen Shore;
> > Nancy Ward; Paul Bowman; John Slatin; Elbert Johns; Gregg
> > Vanderheiden; Michael Cooper; Judy Brewer; WCAG
> > Subject: Starting over (was: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments
> > relating to cognitive, learning, and language disabilities)
> >
> > Can we restart this discussion? We'll lose our focus if
> > people get angry.
> >
> > This is a difficult issue. I think everyone on this list
> > wants to find good solutions. We're working hard to
> > understand each other.
> >
> > I'm asking for help understanding the sites that use Bliss or
> > other symbol languages. I have been to the sites that Lisa
> > listed, and I've chosen the links to display Bliss or other
> > symbol languages.
> >
> > I didn't understand the results. In some cases my screen
> > reader spoke most of the words and phrases twice.
> >
> > This may have been because the content was presented in
> > *both* English and Bliss, so the screen reader read both the
> > English text and the alt text for the individual Bliss symbols.
> >
> > It was very difficult to understand!
> >
> > In another case I couldn't tell whether the content changed
> > when I selected Bliss. Maybe that was because it worked
> > correctly-- that is, maybe the content was presented only in
> > Bliss, and JAWS read it like English because it was using alt text.
> >
> > I also visited one of the sites that Jonathan mentioned as an
> > example that uses icons effectively. My screen reader
> > couldn't handle it.
> >
> > I think something useful will emerge from all this. But we
> > need to be patient with each other and explain as best we can.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > John
> > "Good design is accessible design."
> >
> > Dr. John M. Slatin, Director
> > Accessibility Institute
> > University of Texas at Austin
> > FAC 248C
> > 1 University Station G9600
> > Austin, TX 78712
> > ph 512-495-4288, fax 512-495-4524
> > email john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu
> > Web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lisa [mailto:lisa@ubaccess.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:22 PM
> > To: 'David MacDonald'; 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'j.chetwynd'
> > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver';
> > 'Chuck Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton
> > Lewis'; 'Gian Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano';
> > 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin';
> > 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy
> > Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive,
> > learning, and language disabilities
> >
> >
> >  >Could you send a link to the RDF document? I don't remember seeing
> > that in completed form.
> >
> > It never was in a final form
> > it was put on the non critical list and no one had time to review it.
> >
> > >The Peebo site requires SVG which requires a special
> > download for most
> > browsers. The messages that the browsers give are
> > >>not too friendly to cognitive users. They give a warning
> > that Active X
> > controls can be dangerous. Many people with cognitive
> > >disabilities would not know what to do with that, I would say.
> >
> >
> > and yet many real people have enjoyed using it - people who
> > can not use
> > 99.9% of WCAG accessible sites
> >
> >
> > >The DART site uses language and vocabulary (at least in
> > English) which
> > is
> > quite advanced.
> >
> > your need to select the option in BLISS or pictures.
> >
> > I sent you these links because you seemed to want to see what
> > was being
> > done
> > - what products are available etc, so you could understand how many
> > people
> > with disabilities use the web outside the WCAG communities.
> >
> > If you prefer to pick holes in how they are doing it, that is Ok too,
> > but I
> > don't see that will help anyone.
> >
> >
> > Lisa
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David MacDonald [mailto:befree@magma.ca]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:32 PM
> > To: 'lisa'; 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'j.chetwynd'
> > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> > Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> > Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy
> > Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
> > Vanderheiden';
> > 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
> > and
> > language disabilities
> >
> > Hi Lisa
> >
> > >>and these techniques came of the to do list until after last call.
> >
> > I don't think this is an entirely fair statement. I looked at the
> > Telecommunications Problems and Design Strategies for People with
> > Cognitive
> > Disabilities report and printed out the excerpts you listed.
> > I compared
> > our
> > guidelines to those recommendations. I think that we've done much of
> > what
> > the report was recommending, to the extent that it applies to
> > the web to
> > the
> > degree that it was testable. Also, many of the untestable
> > techniques in
> > that
> > document are listed advisory as advisory in the guidelines.
> > Much of that
> > was
> > due to your hard work and contribution while on the group.
> >
> > The primary reference for the Telecommunications document was
> > the TRACE
> > centre research which is active on our committee.
> >
> > Could you send a link to the RDF document? I don't remember
> > seeing that
> > in
> > completed form.
> >
> > I personally do not have a problem with renaming advisory techniques
> > "advisory and/or untestable techniques". The conformance section says
> > that
> > advisory techniques consist of helpful advice and techniques that are
> > untestable. But I'm ok with saying that in every section. Of course it
> > would
> > depend on consensus.
> >
> > I did a brief examination of the sites you sent as models for
> > cognitive
> > accessibility.
> >
> > -The Peebo site requires SVG which requires a special
> > download for most
> > browsers. The messages that the browsers give are not too friendly to
> > cognitive users. They give a warning that Active X controls can be
> > dangerous. Many people with cognitive disabilities would not know what
> > to do
> > with that, I would say. Once I finally installed SVG, I went
> > to the web
> > portals page, and was met with a password dialogue box. I think that
> > would
> > confuse many people with cognitive disabilities. When I backed out of
> > the
> > unauthorized page warning, back to the homepage, I tried to link to
> > other
> > pages ("forms, splat, radio etc.) but the links were dead.
> >
> > -I went to handicom. I didn't find anything on the site itself that
> > seemed
> > particularly oriented to help people with cognitive issues. They sell
> > Bliss,
> > but they don't really use bliss on the web site. There was
> > rotating gif
> > on
> > the home page, which for me we distracting. The language of
> > the site is
> > not
> > particularly oriented to people below secondary level
> > education. Here's
> > an
> > excerpt:
> >
> > "Handicom focuses its activities on the tangent plane between handicap
> > and
> > computer. Tomorrow's techniques are used for the development
> > of adapted
> > computer and communication tools. It's mainly software we make."
> >
> > -The DART site uses language and vocabulary (at least in
> > English) which
> > is
> > quite advanced.
> >
> > --The ISSAC site uses icons on the nav bar and bliss symbols beside
> > links.
> > Which is good but again the language at least in English, is quite
> > academic.
> >
> >
> > -The Widget site uses icons but not much else on it was specifically
> > gears
> > to Cognitive. Again the language doesn't seem geared to people with
> > cognitive disabilities. He's an exceprt.
> >
> > "2,000 new diverse and relevant symbols for WWS2000 and In Print to
> > bring
> > resources to life."
> >
> > None of the sites listed meet the guidelines set out in the
> > 1991 report
> > that
> > was point as a guide. Nor would I expect them to.
> >
> > However, one common feature that I see on these sites that seems
> > particularly geared to cognitive issues is the use of
> > symbols. Which it
> > think is a great idea and I think we should create a technique under
> > 2.4.2
> > titled
> >
> > "using pictures or symbols compliment link text"
> >
> > I think it is perfectly fine to say more research can to be
> > done in this
> > area. With cognitive issues I would say, we are currently where blind
> > people
> > were 30 years ago. And it's hard work from pioneers like you that is
> > moving
> > it forward.
> >
> >
> >
> > David MacDonald
> >
> > access empowers people...
> >         ...barriers disable them...
> >
> > www.eramp.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of lisa
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:56 AM
> > To: 'David MacDonald'; 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'j.chetwynd'
> > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> > Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> > Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy
> > Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
> > Vanderheiden';
> > 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
> > and
> > language disabilities
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi David
> >
> > This discussion has proved my point. That it is not a lack of research
> > that
> > is the primary problem for accessibility for cognitive
> > disabilities, but
> > other factors - such as adoptability, interest "appropriateness" etc..
> >
> > It is essential that people do not think that following WCAG
> > is the best
> > they can do for these communities.
> >
> > Look  at the work of WAACI  and http://www.handicom.nl/  and
> > http://peepo.com/  and ld-web.org. That will help you get an idea of
> > what is
> > doable - today.
> >
> >  WCAG does not contain guidelines that will help you achieve this type
> > of
> > accessibility.
> >
> > In terms of commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based
> > accessibility - no I do not know of any. There is no legislation to
> > drive
> > them, and the discrimination against these groups are huge.
> >
> > BY the way, the 2001 email was just a sample. I spent years
> > writing and
> > writing test criteria's and guidelines for accessibility for cognitive
> > disabilities. I wrote a CSS techniques, and an RDF techniques document
> > and
> > rewrote the success criteria a bunch of times. We need to view the
> > archives
> > to glean the different approaches and suggestions from over the years,
> > Research existing successes and methodologies, perform a gap analysis
> > etc.....
> >
> > A few sticky plasters is not what is needed. We as standard
> > writers know
> > that. We need a consistent integrated roadmap for access for cognitive
> > disabilities. We have had years to do it but we decided to make it low
> > priority, and these techniques came of the to do list until after last
> > call.
> > We can not now claim that we did the best we could.
> >
> > All the best
> > Lisa
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: David MacDonald [mailto:befree@magma.ca]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:04 PM
> > To: 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'lisa'; 'j.chetwynd'
> > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> > Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> > Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy
> > Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
> > Vanderheiden';
> > 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
> > and
> > language disabilities
> >
> > >>>For an example of a government site that is oriented
> > towards people
> > >>>with
> > cognitive disabilities:The Medicaid Reference Desk
> > http://thedesk.info/
> >
> > A prime feature for a cognitive person would be to be able to ask a
> > question, I would say. But the link to the "ask question" page gives a
> > 404
> > link error. And it appears to have been like that since 2002.
> >
> > On the home page, the additional info summaries above the link list do
> > not
> > work for keyboard users, only for mouse users.
> >
> > Any page that is accessed from the home page comes up in a tiny window
> > with
> > all the Chrome from the browser. A cognitive person can't
> > find the back
> > button. Having the opened window tiny like that means that there are
> > other
> > visible windows on the computer screen, which would be confusing for
> > many
> > people with cognitive disabilities.
> >
> > David MacDonald
> >
> > access empowers people...
> >         ...barriers disable them...
> >
> > www.eramp.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Bailey, Bruce
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:56 AM
> > To: David MacDonald; lisa; j.chetwynd
> > Cc: Loretta Guarino Reid; Sofia Celic; Jan Dekelver; Chuck Hitchcock;
> > Hiroshi Kawamura; Gez Lemon; Clayton Lewis; Gian Sampson-Wild; Keith
> > Smith;
> > Roberto Scano; Stephen Shore; Nancy Ward; Paul Bowman; John Slatin;
> > Elbert
> > Johns; Gregg Vanderheiden; Michael Cooper; Judy Brewer; WCAG
> > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
> > and
> > language disabilities
> >
> >
> > For an example of a government site that is oriented towards
> > people with
> > cognitive disabilities:
> > The Medicaid Reference Desk
> > http://thedesk.info/
> >
> > Nancy Ward and Clayton Lewis have been particularly involved with that
> > project.  I did not find concept maps however.
> >
> > The claim to Triple A status (with a link to CAST no less) is
> > troubling.
> >
> > P.S.:  Follows is a link to the HTML version of the PDF mentioned in
> > Lisa's
> > post from 2001.
> > Telecommunications Problems and Design Strategies for People with
> > Cognitive
> > Disabilities http://www.wid.org/archives/telecom/
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org
> > > [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of David MacDonald
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:23 AM
> > > To: 'lisa'; '"~:'' ????????????"'
> > > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> > > Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> > > Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen
> > Shore'; 'Nancy
> >
> > > Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
> > > Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> > > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to
> > cognitive, learning,
> >
> > > and language disabilities
> > >
> > > Hi Lisa
> > >
> > > Can you provide a link to a successfully implemented
> > concept map on a
> > > commercial (or private site)? I would like to see one in
> > use. Thanks.
> >
> > --
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> > 7:19 PM
> >
> >
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> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
Received on Wednesday, 21 March 2007 02:06:56 GMT

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