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RE: "commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based accessibility"

From: Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 23:44:50 -0400
To: "'Slatin, John M'" <john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu>, "'~:'' ????????????'" <j.chetwynd@btinternet.com>
Cc: "'lisa'" <lisa@ubaccess.com>, "'David MacDonald'" <befree@magma.ca>, "'Bailey, Bruce'" <Bruce.Bailey@ed.gov>, "'Loretta Guarino Reid'" <lorettaguarino@google.com>, "'Sofia Celic'" <Sofia.Celic@visionaustralia.org>, "'Jan Dekelver'" <jan.dekelver@khk.be>, "'Chuck Hitchcock'" <chitchcock@cast.org>, "'Hiroshi Kawamura'" <hkawa@rehab.go.jp>, "'Gez Lemon'" <gez.lemon@gmail.com>, "'Clayton Lewis'" <clayton.lewis@colorado.edu>, "'Gian Sampson-Wild'" <gian@tkh.com.au>, "'Keith Smith'" <k.smith@bild.org.uk>, "'Roberto Scano'" <rscano@iwa-italy.org>, "'Stephen Shore'" <Tumbalaika@aol.com>, "'Nancy Ward'" <nward@thedesk.info>, "'Paul Bowman'" <pbowman@gmu.edu>, "'John Slatin'" <jslatin@mail.utexas.edu>, "'Elbert Johns'" <ejohns@thearclink.org>, "'Michael Cooper'" <cooper@w3.org>, "'Judy Brewer'" <jbrewer@w3.org>, "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <014c01c76846$a2cafd40$3a49c54b@NC84301>

Bliss as used today always has a word written below it.   Alt text could
also be provided if no gloss was desired for some reason.


Gregg
 -- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Slatin, John M [mailto:john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu]
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 9:50 AM
> To: ~:'' ????????????
> Cc: lisa; David MacDonald; Bailey, Bruce; Loretta Guarino
> Reid; Sofia Celic; Jan Dekelver; Chuck Hitchcock; Hiroshi
> Kawamura; Gez Lemon; Clayton Lewis; Gian Sampson-Wild; Keith
> Smith; Roberto Scano; Stephen Shore; Nancy Ward; Paul Bowman;
> John Slatin; Elbert Johns; Gregg Vanderheiden; Michael
> Cooper; Judy Brewer; WCAG
> Subject: RE: "commercial websites that have adopted symbolic
> based accessibility"
>
> Jonathan,
>
> Thanks for your thoughtful message!
>
> These are difficult issues for all of us-- different
> disability groups, and people with different disabilities,
> learning how to communicate with each other and make the
> things they care about accessible to everyone.
>
> Flash has come a long way toward the *possibility* of
> accessibility in the last couple of years. It would have been
> possible for the developers of the Disney site  to achieve
> considerably more accessibility. But Disney would have had to
> include it in the project requirements document, in enough
> detail for the developers to know what they were being asked
> to do. And then of course Disney would have had to pay for the work.
>
> I'm very interested in your work with SVG. Do you know of any
> SVG viewers that are accessible to users who are blind?
>
> Thanks also to Sean for describing the Bliss pages and giving
> me an idea of what the symbols look like. They sound
> fascinating and possibly quite beautiful.
>
> As I understand it, Bliss is actually a language, not a
> representation of phonemes; so it's different from the IPA. I
> On one of the sites there was a link to what sounded like an
> authoring tool; I'd be interested to know if that's accessible.
>
> Lisa, do you know if it's possible for someone who is blind
> to use Bliss?
>
> John
> "Good design is accessible design."
>
> Dr. John M. Slatin, Director
> Accessibility Institute
> University of Texas at Austin
> FAC 248C
> 1 University Station G9600
> Austin, TX 78712
> ph 512-495-4288, fax 512-495-4524
> email john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu
> Web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: j.chetwynd@btinternet.com [mailto:j.chetwynd@btinternet.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:36 AM
> To: Slatin, John M
> Cc: lisa; David MacDonald; Bailey, Bruce; Loretta Guarino
> Reid; Sofia Celic; Jan Dekelver; Chuck Hitchcock; Hiroshi
> Kawamura; Gez Lemon; Clayton Lewis; Gian Sampson-Wild; Keith
> Smith; Roberto Scano; Stephen Shore; Nancy Ward; Paul Bowman;
> John Slatin; Elbert Johns; Gregg Vanderheiden; Michael
> Cooper; Judy Brewer; WCAG
> Subject: Re: "commercial websites that have adopted symbolic
> based accessibility"
>
>
> John,
>
> I didn't say "we shouldn't talk about these sites in terms of full
> WAI accessibility"
> I said
> "(I) won't comment on their WAI accessibility, as that could
> embarrass both parties"
>
> the fact is that if one has a budget or desire to develop
> illustrated
> resources, whether for children or adults, one is bound to consider
> the authoring tools available and the results produced.
>
> Flash tools are often chosen.
>
> I've chosen to use SVG, but that requires much greater patience and
> more dedication than most will have at the  present time. Are
> you for
> instance aware that SVG1.1 the spec that most current
> implementations
> rely on does not include keyboard navigation>
> I spent nearly three years badgering Safari, Opera and Mozilla  to
> include keyboard support, outside of WAI.
> I was successful, they broke the specification... but it was a huge
> task.
>
> I am in total agreement regarding the difficulties, but the fact
> remains that WAI & WCAG has  at least as far to travel in developing
> their understanding of the issues.  in 2004, I asked Judy and the
> chairs of P&FWG to let me participate as a member, I have
> renewed the
> request over the past three years and am still awaiting a response.
> Their lack of interest, directly led to me leaving WAI at that time.
>
> Yesterday I agreed a t a lunch meeting to file bug reports with UA
> developers to provide a dialogue that enables Flash to be
> disabled. When
> instituted this should meet some of your concerns regarding Disney.
>
> regards
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
>
>
>
> On 15 Mar 2007, at 16:07, Slatin, John M wrote:
>
> I would find it very helpful if someone would describe at least some
> of the icons used on the Disney site or Yahooligans, etc. I'm
> familiar with icons like those for Home and Mail, etc., and
> with many
> international road signs, but I have no way to tell which
> ones may be
> used on the Disney site.
>
> The Disney page is now almost entirely Flash. Audio plays
> automatically, which overwhelms my screen reader, but if I listen
> really really hard while I use the downArrow to go down the page one
> line at a time, I hear what I've transcribed in the JAWS transcript
> below. Note that JAWS puts the word "button" befor each of the
> numbers below. But I can't access them and I don't know what they are.
>
> Jonathan, you said we shouldn't talk about these sites in terms of
> full WAI accessibility.
>
> I disagree. That is exactly what we have to do.
>
> <JAWS transcript>
> Disney.com | The Official Home Page For All Things Disney -
>
> hit frame
>
> hit frame end
>
> ads frame
>
> ads frame end
>
> Flash movie start
> 2
> 4
> 6
> 8
> 10
> 16
> 18
> Disney For You
> 21
> 23
> Search Disney.com
> 27
> 31
> 32
> 33
> Find Disney Movies, TV, Games, and more!
> Preschool
> 37
> Boys
> You're Watching
> 41
> Girls
> 45
> Caffeine Patch Exclusive
> Kids & Teens
> Hot Games
> 50
> Families
> 53
> 55
> Visit the site
> Disney Fans
> 58
> 62
> What's New in Games
> 66
> 68
> 69
> 70
> 71
> Playlist
> 74
> Caffeine Patch Exclusive
> 78
> Check out this exclusive scene from Meet The Robinsons!
> Find More Games
> 83
> 85
> What's New in Music
> 87
> 88
> 91
> 94
> 96
> 97
> 100
> 101
> 103
> 105
> 106
> 107
> 108
> 109
> 110
> 112
> 113
> 114
> 115
> 116
> 117
> 118
> 120
> Make Us Your Homepage  |   Switch to Disney Online Lite   Site Map
> |  FAQ/Help  |  Your Account  |  Guest Services   Privacy
> Policy/Your
> California Privacy Rights  |  Terms of Use  |  Internet Safety
> International Sites  |  Corporate Info  |  Legal Notices  |  More
> Disney Sites   (c) Disney. All rights reserved.
> 124
> 125
> 126
> Flash movie end
> </JAWS transcript>
>
>
> "Good design is accessible design."
>
> Dr. John M. Slatin, Director
> Accessibility Institute
> University of Texas at Austin
> FAC 248C
> 1 University Station G9600
> Austin, TX 78712
> ph 512-495-4288, fax 512-495-4524
> email john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu
> Web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: j.chetwynd@btinternet.com [mailto:j.chetwynd@btinternet.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:04 AM
> To: lisa
> Cc: 'David MacDonald'; 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'Loretta Guarino Reid';
> 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi
> Kawamura';
> 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith';
> 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John
> Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper';
> 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> Subject: "commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based
> accessibility"
>
>
> "commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based accessibility"
>
> Lisa,
>
> many symbols work across all known languages, eg toilet signs, miming
> thirsty, or hungry etc
>
> symbols as used for web navigation, apart from peepo on commercial
> websites:
>
> well apart from the obvious and ubiquitous home, email, video
> and other
> icons...
>
> disney, bbc, yahoo and slashdot enough?
> there are plenty more and better examples....
> won't comment on their WAI accessibility, as that could embarrass both
> parties ~:"
>
> http://home.disney.go.com/
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/cartoons/
>    yahooligans.com for many years was a fully iconised portal http://
> kids.yahoo.com/news is their current beta for the news slashdot.org
> was another. icons are still used, but no longer on the navigation
> bar...
>
> best wishes
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
>
>
>
> On 15 Mar 2007, at 08:55, lisa wrote:
>
>
> Hi David
>
> This discussion has proved my point. That it is not a lack of research
> that is the primary problem for accessibility for cognitive
> disabilities,
> but other factors - such as adoptability, interest "appropriateness"
> etc..
>
> It is essential that people do not think that following WCAG is the
> best they can do for these communities.
>
> Look  at the work of WAACI  and http://www.handicom.nl/  and http://
> peepo.com/  and ld-web.org. That will help you get an idea of what is
> doable - today.
>
>    WCAG does not contain guidelines that will help you
> achieve this type
> of accessibility.
>
> In terms of commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based
> accessibility - no I do not know of any. There is no legislation to
> drive them, and the discrimination against these groups are huge.
>
> BY the way, the 2001 email was just a sample. I spent years writing
> and writing test criteria's and guidelines for accessibility for
> cognitive disabilities. I wrote a CSS techniques, and an RDF
> techniques
> document and rewrote the success criteria a bunch of times. We need to
> view the archives to glean the different approaches and
> suggestions from
> over the
> years, Research existing successes and methodologies, perform a gap
> analysis etc.....
>
> A few sticky plasters is not what is needed. We as standard writers
> know that. We need a consistent integrated roadmap for access for
> cognitive disabilities. We have had years to do it but we decided to
> make it low priority, and these techniques came of the to do list
> until after
> last call.
> We can not now claim that we did the best we could.
>
> All the best
> Lisa
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David MacDonald [mailto:befree@magma.ca]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:04 PM
> To: 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'lisa'; 'j.chetwynd'
> Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore';
> 'Nancy Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
> Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
> and language disabilities
>
> >>> For an example of a government site that is oriented
> towards people
> >>> with
> cognitive disabilities:The Medicaid Reference Desk
> http://thedesk.info/
>
> A prime feature for a cognitive person would be to be able to ask a
> question, I would say. But the link to the "ask question" page gives a
> 404 link error. And it appears to have been like that since 2002.
>
> On the home page, the additional info summaries above the link list do
> not work for keyboard users, only for mouse users.
>
> Any page that is accessed from the home page comes up in a tiny window
> with all the Chrome from the browser. A cognitive person
> can't find the
>
> back button. Having the opened window tiny like that means
> that there
> are
> other
> visible windows on the computer screen, which would be confusing for
> many people with cognitive disabilities.
>
> David MacDonald
>
> access empowers people...
>           ...barriers disable them...
>
> www.eramp.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
> Behalf Of Bailey, Bruce
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:56 AM
> To: David MacDonald; lisa; j.chetwynd
> Cc: Loretta Guarino Reid; Sofia Celic; Jan Dekelver; Chuck
> Hitchcock;
> Hiroshi Kawamura; Gez Lemon; Clayton Lewis; Gian Sampson-Wild; Keith
> Smith; Roberto Scano; Stephen Shore; Nancy Ward; Paul Bowman; John
> Slatin; Elbert Johns; Gregg Vanderheiden; Michael Cooper; Judy Brewer;
> WCAG
> Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
> and language disabilities
>
>
> For an example of a government site that is oriented towards people
> with cognitive disabilities: The Medicaid Reference Desk http://
> thedesk.info/
>
> Nancy Ward and Clayton Lewis have been particularly involved with
> that project.  I did not find concept maps however.
>
> The claim to Triple A status (with a link to CAST no less) is
> troubling.
>
> P.S.:  Follows is a link to the HTML version of the PDF mentioned in
> Lisa's post from 2001. Telecommunications Problems and Design
> Strategies
> for People with Cognitive Disabilities
> http://www.wid.org/archives/telecom/
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]On
> > Behalf Of David MacDonald
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:23 AM
> > To: 'lisa'; '"~:'' ????????????"'
> > Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck
> > Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian
> > Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen
> Shore'; 'Nancy
>
> > Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
> > Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> > Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to
> cognitive, learning,
>
> > and language disabilities
> >
> > Hi Lisa
> >
> > Can you provide a link to a successfully implemented
> concept map on a
> > commercial (or private site)? I would like to see one in
> use. Thanks.
>
> --
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>
>
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Received on Saturday, 17 March 2007 03:45:20 GMT

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