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RE: "commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based accessibility"

From: Slatin, John M <john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 08:50:28 -0500
Message-ID: <6EED8F7006A883459D4818686BCE3B3B05B20455@MAIL01.austin.utexas.edu>
To: "~:'' ????????????" <j.chetwynd@btinternet.com>
Cc: "lisa" <lisa@ubaccess.com>, "David MacDonald" <befree@magma.ca>, "Bailey, Bruce" <Bruce.Bailey@ed.gov>, "Loretta Guarino Reid" <lorettaguarino@google.com>, "Sofia Celic" <Sofia.Celic@visionaustralia.org>, "Jan Dekelver" <jan.dekelver@khk.be>, "Chuck Hitchcock" <chitchcock@cast.org>, "Hiroshi Kawamura" <hkawa@rehab.go.jp>, "Gez Lemon" <gez.lemon@gmail.com>, "Clayton Lewis" <clayton.lewis@colorado.edu>, "Gian Sampson-Wild" <gian@tkh.com.au>, "Keith Smith" <k.smith@bild.org.uk>, "Roberto Scano" <rscano@iwa-italy.org>, "Stephen Shore" <Tumbalaika@aol.com>, "Nancy Ward" <nward@thedesk.info>, "Paul Bowman" <pbowman@gmu.edu>, "John Slatin" <jslatin@mail.utexas.edu>, "Elbert Johns" <ejohns@thearclink.org>, "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>, "Michael Cooper" <cooper@w3.org>, "Judy Brewer" <jbrewer@w3.org>, "WCAG" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>

Jonathan,

Thanks for your thoughtful message! 

These are difficult issues for all of us-- different disability groups,
and people with different disabilities, learning how to communicate with
each other and make the things they care about accessible to everyone.

Flash has come a long way toward the *possibility* of accessibility in
the last couple of years. It would have been possible for the developers
of the Disney site  to achieve considerably more accessibility. But
Disney would have had to include it in the project requirements
document, in enough detail for the developers to know what they were
being asked to do. And then of course Disney would have had to pay for
the work. 

I'm very interested in your work with SVG. Do you know of any SVG
viewers that are accessible to users who are blind? 

Thanks also to Sean for describing the Bliss pages and giving me an idea
of what the symbols look like. They sound fascinating and possibly quite
beautiful. 

As I understand it, Bliss is actually a language, not a representation
of phonemes; so it's different from the IPA. I On one of the sites there
was a link to what sounded like an authoring tool; I'd be interested to
know if that's accessible.

Lisa, do you know if it's possible for someone who is blind to use
Bliss?

John
"Good design is accessible design."

Dr. John M. Slatin, Director 
Accessibility Institute
University of Texas at Austin 
FAC 248C 
1 University Station G9600 
Austin, TX 78712 
ph 512-495-4288, fax 512-495-4524 
email john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu
Web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility 



-----Original Message-----
From: j.chetwynd@btinternet.com [mailto:j.chetwynd@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 2:36 AM
To: Slatin, John M
Cc: lisa; David MacDonald; Bailey, Bruce; Loretta Guarino Reid; Sofia
Celic; Jan Dekelver; Chuck Hitchcock; Hiroshi Kawamura; Gez Lemon;
Clayton Lewis; Gian Sampson-Wild; Keith Smith; Roberto Scano; Stephen
Shore; Nancy Ward; Paul Bowman; John Slatin; Elbert Johns; Gregg
Vanderheiden; Michael Cooper; Judy Brewer; WCAG
Subject: Re: "commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based
accessibility"


John,

I didn't say "we shouldn't talk about these sites in terms of full  
WAI accessibility"
I said
"(I) won't comment on their WAI accessibility, as that could  
embarrass both parties"

the fact is that if one has a budget or desire to develop illustrated  
resources, whether for children or adults, one is bound to consider  
the authoring tools available and the results produced.

Flash tools are often chosen.

I've chosen to use SVG, but that requires much greater patience and  
more dedication than most will have at the  present time. Are you for  
instance aware that SVG1.1 the spec that most current implementations  
rely on does not include keyboard navigation>
I spent nearly three years badgering Safari, Opera and Mozilla  to  
include keyboard support, outside of WAI.
I was successful, they broke the specification... but it was a huge  
task.

I am in total agreement regarding the difficulties, but the fact  
remains that WAI & WCAG has  at least as far to travel in developing  
their understanding of the issues.  in 2004, I asked Judy and the  
chairs of P&FWG to let me participate as a member, I have renewed the  
request over the past three years and am still awaiting a response.  
Their lack of interest, directly led to me leaving WAI at that time.

Yesterday I agreed a t a lunch meeting to file bug reports with UA  
developers to provide a dialogue that enables Flash to be disabled. When
instituted this should meet some of your concerns regarding Disney.

regards

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 15 Mar 2007, at 16:07, Slatin, John M wrote:

I would find it very helpful if someone would describe at least some  
of the icons used on the Disney site or Yahooligans, etc. I'm  
familiar with icons like those for Home and Mail, etc., and with many  
international road signs, but I have no way to tell which ones may be  
used on the Disney site.

The Disney page is now almost entirely Flash. Audio plays  
automatically, which overwhelms my screen reader, but if I listen  
really really hard while I use the downArrow to go down the page one  
line at a time, I hear what I've transcribed in the JAWS transcript  
below. Note that JAWS puts the word "button" befor each of the  
numbers below. But I can't access them and I don't know what they are.

Jonathan, you said we shouldn't talk about these sites in terms of  
full WAI accessibility.

I disagree. That is exactly what we have to do.

<JAWS transcript>
Disney.com | The Official Home Page For All Things Disney -

hit frame

hit frame end

ads frame

ads frame end

Flash movie start
2
4
6
8
10
16
18
Disney For You
21
23
Search Disney.com
27
31
32
33
Find Disney Movies, TV, Games, and more!
Preschool
37
Boys
You're Watching
41
Girls
45
Caffeine Patch Exclusive
Kids & Teens
Hot Games
50
Families
53
55
Visit the site
Disney Fans
58
62
What's New in Games
66
68
69
70
71
Playlist
74
Caffeine Patch Exclusive
78
Check out this exclusive scene from Meet The Robinsons!
Find More Games
83
85
What's New in Music
87
88
91
94
96
97
100
101
103
105
106
107
108
109
110
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
120
Make Us Your Homepage  |   Switch to Disney Online Lite   Site Map   
|  FAQ/Help  |  Your Account  |  Guest Services   Privacy Policy/Your  
California Privacy Rights  |  Terms of Use  |  Internet Safety    
International Sites  |  Corporate Info  |  Legal Notices  |  More  
Disney Sites   (c) Disney. All rights reserved.
124
125
126
Flash movie end
</JAWS transcript>


"Good design is accessible design."

Dr. John M. Slatin, Director
Accessibility Institute
University of Texas at Austin
FAC 248C
1 University Station G9600
Austin, TX 78712
ph 512-495-4288, fax 512-495-4524
email john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu
Web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility



-----Original Message-----
From: j.chetwynd@btinternet.com [mailto:j.chetwynd@btinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:04 AM
To: lisa
Cc: 'David MacDonald'; 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'Loretta Guarino Reid';  
'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura';  
'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith';  
'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John  
Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper';  
'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
Subject: "commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based  
accessibility"


"commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based accessibility"

Lisa,

many symbols work across all known languages, eg toilet signs, miming
thirsty, or hungry etc

symbols as used for web navigation, apart from peepo on commercial
websites:

well apart from the obvious and ubiquitous home, email, video and other
icons...

disney, bbc, yahoo and slashdot enough?
there are plenty more and better examples....
won't comment on their WAI accessibility, as that could embarrass both
parties ~:"

http://home.disney.go.com/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/cartoons/
   yahooligans.com for many years was a fully iconised portal http:// 
kids.yahoo.com/news is their current beta for the news slashdot.org  
was another. icons are still used, but no longer on the navigation
bar...

best wishes

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 15 Mar 2007, at 08:55, lisa wrote:


Hi David

This discussion has proved my point. That it is not a lack of research
that is the primary problem for accessibility for cognitive
disabilities,  
but other factors - such as adoptability, interest "appropriateness"  
etc..

It is essential that people do not think that following WCAG is the  
best they can do for these communities.

Look  at the work of WAACI  and http://www.handicom.nl/  and http:// 
peepo.com/  and ld-web.org. That will help you get an idea of what is
doable - today.

   WCAG does not contain guidelines that will help you achieve this type
of accessibility.

In terms of commercial websites that have adopted symbolic based  
accessibility - no I do not know of any. There is no legislation to
drive them, and the discrimination against these groups are huge.

BY the way, the 2001 email was just a sample. I spent years writing  
and writing test criteria's and guidelines for accessibility for  
cognitive disabilities. I wrote a CSS techniques, and an RDF techniques
document and rewrote the success criteria a bunch of times. We need to
view the archives to glean the different approaches and suggestions from
over the  
years, Research existing successes and methodologies, perform a gap  
analysis etc.....

A few sticky plasters is not what is needed. We as standard writers  
know that. We need a consistent integrated roadmap for access for  
cognitive disabilities. We have had years to do it but we decided to  
make it low priority, and these techniques came of the to do list  
until after
last call.
We can not now claim that we did the best we could.

All the best
Lisa




-----Original Message-----
From: David MacDonald [mailto:befree@magma.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:04 PM
To: 'Bailey, Bruce'; 'lisa'; 'j.chetwynd'
Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck  
Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian  
Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore';  
'Nancy Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg
Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
and language disabilities

>>> For an example of a government site that is oriented towards people 
>>> with
cognitive disabilities:The Medicaid Reference Desk http://thedesk.info/

A prime feature for a cognitive person would be to be able to ask a  
question, I would say. But the link to the "ask question" page gives a
404 link error. And it appears to have been like that since 2002.

On the home page, the additional info summaries above the link list do
not work for keyboard users, only for mouse users.

Any page that is accessed from the home page comes up in a tiny window
with all the Chrome from the browser. A cognitive person can't find the

back button. Having the opened window tiny like that means that there  
are
other
visible windows on the computer screen, which would be confusing for
many people with cognitive disabilities.

David MacDonald

access empowers people...
          ...barriers disable them...

www.eramp.com

-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
Behalf Of Bailey, Bruce
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:56 AM
To: David MacDonald; lisa; j.chetwynd
Cc: Loretta Guarino Reid; Sofia Celic; Jan Dekelver; Chuck Hitchcock;  
Hiroshi Kawamura; Gez Lemon; Clayton Lewis; Gian Sampson-Wild; Keith
Smith; Roberto Scano; Stephen Shore; Nancy Ward; Paul Bowman; John
Slatin; Elbert Johns; Gregg Vanderheiden; Michael Cooper; Judy Brewer;
WCAG
Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,
and language disabilities


For an example of a government site that is oriented towards people  
with cognitive disabilities: The Medicaid Reference Desk http:// 
thedesk.info/

Nancy Ward and Clayton Lewis have been particularly involved with  
that project.  I did not find concept maps however.

The claim to Triple A status (with a link to CAST no less) is troubling.

P.S.:  Follows is a link to the HTML version of the PDF mentioned in
Lisa's post from 2001. Telecommunications Problems and Design Strategies
for People with Cognitive Disabilities
http://www.wid.org/archives/telecom/


> -----Original Message-----
> From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]On
> Behalf Of David MacDonald
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:23 AM
> To: 'lisa'; '"~:'' ????????????"'
> Cc: 'Loretta Guarino Reid'; 'Sofia Celic'; 'Jan Dekelver'; 'Chuck 
> Hitchcock'; 'Hiroshi Kawamura'; 'Gez Lemon'; 'Clayton Lewis'; 'Gian 
> Sampson-Wild'; 'Keith Smith'; 'Roberto Scano'; 'Stephen Shore'; 'Nancy

> Ward'; 'Paul Bowman'; 'John Slatin'; 'Elbert Johns'; 'Gregg 
> Vanderheiden'; 'Michael Cooper'; 'Judy Brewer'; 'WCAG'
> Subject: RE: Report on WCAG2 comments relating to cognitive, learning,

> and language disabilities
>
> Hi Lisa
>
> Can you provide a link to a successfully implemented concept map on a 
> commercial (or private site)? I would like to see one in use. Thanks.

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