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RE: Just (almost plain) Web-page*

From: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@exchange.microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 11:10:46 -0800
To: "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <EC00246575819245B066C20F77051F297FB4DD@df-whippet-msg.exchange.corp.microsoft.com>
Many of these should still be delivery unit, as they apply to other delivery units, not just primary units.  We need to remember that we're talking about two different things here.  Web Pages are primary delivery units and their resources.  Delivery units are delivered blocks of content.  Web Page is a subset of Delivery Unit.  We do not need a single term.  We need two.

Here are some examples of delivery units that are not Web Pages, and yet must be able to comply with WCAG.

An ad in an iframe
An RSS feed that is aggregated into a portal via script
A feed that contains HTML which is aggregated into a portal
The result of an AJAX call back that is integrated into a page
A web service that returns pre-formatted HTML, which is used by mix-ups.
(these are just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others)

For all of these, the requirement is that 1)either the DU is accessible on it's own or 2) the primary DU that consumes it does something to make it accessible.  These DUs may be owned by different content providers than the containing DU.  If only the containing "page" can make a claim, there is no incentive for the content providers to improve their accessibility.

Again, the primary DU may not be a "page", it may be a Web-based newsreader, or a Web-Based mail client, a "mix-up" application that's repurposing content from 5 or 6 different sites, or something else yet to be invented.  We run the risk of making ourselves archaic and irrelevant before we even release if we don't adequately address these scenarios.  This is the direction the Web is moving.


Now, to the specifics of the SC below.  Some of these seem to me to be about end-user experience and navigation.  For these, Web Pages may be ok.  I think it's too specific, but it is at least close to accurate.  These are:

2.4.4 Each Web-Page* has a title (this one applies to any primary unit, and doesn't require that the resources be present.)
3.2.3 Navigational mechanisms that are repeated on multiple Web-Pages* within a set of Web-Pages* occur in the same relative order each time they are repeated unless a change is initiated by the user.

These two, I'm not sure on.
2.4.2 A mechanism is available to bypass blocks of content that are repeated on multiple Web-Pages*.  (this one I'm not sure on.  It may be needed in some of the above as well)
3.2.4 Components that have the same functionality within a set of Web-Pages* are identified consistently.

The rest of these apply equally to the other delivery units listed above.  Web Page is not accurate. They should stay Delivery Unit.  If we're worried that people won't understand that, then we need to write some stuff in the understanding document explaining this.  I'll even volunteer to write it.

2.2.2 Content does not blink for more than 3 seconds, or a method is available to stop any blinking content within the Delivery Unit
2.4.3 More than one way is available to locate content within a set of Delivery Units where content is not the result of, or a step in, a process or task.
2.4.5 Each programmatic reference to another Delivery Unit, or to another location in the same Delivery Unit is associated with text describing the destination.
2.4.7 When a Web-Page* is navigated sequentially, elements receive focus in an order that follows relationships and sequences in the content.
2.4.8 Information about the user's location within a set of Delivery Units is available.
3.1.1 The primary natural language or languages of the Delivery Unit can be programmatically determined.
4.1.1 Each Delivery Unit can be parsed unambiguously and the relationships in the resulting data structure are also unambiguous.


________________________________
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 5:37 AM
To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: Just (almost plain) Web-page*


 In working on the SC that have delivery Unit in them to try replacing with "Web page(including web applications)"  I find that it is just plain awkward, reads funny and sometimes gives wrong impressions.

For example if you say

3.2.4 Components that have the same functionality within a set of Web pages (including Web application) are identified consistently.

It sounds like you are saying the set of web pages is a web application.


So I went back and looked at the issue over again.

The definition we are using is the DI definition for Web Page.   We didn't want to call it that because it means more than just a static page. It means (and is defined as) any primary resource and all the resources rendered with it.   We differ just a shade from DI in that they say 'rendered simultaneously" and that perhaps misleading for pages that have script or are interactive environments.

So how about we use   Web-Page*
The hyphen and asterisk indicate that there is something about it that is not just a regular web-page (which we need).  But it does so in a way that is so much less obtrusive and problematic than anything else we have been able to come up with.

If we do this - the SC in question become:


2.2.2 Content does not blink for more than 3 seconds, or a method is available to stop any blinking content within the Web-Page*.
2.4.2 A mechanism is available to bypass blocks of content that are repeated on multiple Web-Pages*.
2.4.3 More than one way is available to locate content within a set of Web-Pages* where content is not the result of, or a step in, a process or task.
2.4.4 Each Web-Page* has a title.
2.4.5 Each programmatic reference to another Web-Page* or to another location in the same Web-Page* is associated with text describing the destination.
2.4.7 When a Web-Page* is navigated sequentially, elements receive focus in an order that follows relationships and sequences in the content.
2.4.8 Information about the user's location within a set of Web-Pages* is available.
3.1.1 The primary natural language or languages of the Web-Page* can be programmatically determined.
3.2.3 Navigational mechanisms that are repeated on multiple Web-Pages* within a set of Web-Pages* occur in the same relative order each time they are repeated unless a change is initiated by the user.
3.2.4 Components that have the same functionality within a set of Web-Pages* are identified consistently.
4.1.1 Each Web-Page* can be parsed unambiguously and the relationships in the resulting data structure are also unambiguous.

(the word Each was added to 2.4.4 and 4.1.1 to match other guidelines and to read better and in was changed to within on 2.2.2)

Gregg


PS   To get an idea of what these look like if we use one of the other approaches - here are the others -
OTHER THINGS TRIED BUT REJECTED...

2.2.2 Content does not blink for more than 3 seconds, or a method is available to stop any blinking content within the Web page (including Web application).
2.4.2 A mechanism is available to bypass blocks of content that are repeated on multiple Web pages (including Web application).
2.4.3 More than one way is available to locate content within a set of Web pages (including Web application) where content is not the result of, or a step in, a process or task.
2.4.4 The Web page (including Web application) has a title.
2.4.5 Each programmatic reference to another Web page (including Web application) or to another location in the same Web page (including Web applications), is associated with text describing the destination.
2.4.7 When a Web page (including Web application) is navigated sequentially, elements receive focus in an order that follows relationships and sequences in the content.
2.4.8 Information about the user's location within a set of Web pages (including Web application) is available.
3.1.1 The primary natural language or languages of the Web page (including Web application) can be programmatically determined.
3.2.3 Navigational mechanisms that are repeated on multiple Web pages (including Web application) within a set of Web pages  (including Web applications) occur in the same relative order each time they are repeated unless a change is initiated by the user.
3.2.4 Components that have the same functionality within a set of Web pages (including Web application) are identified consistently.
4.1.1 The Web page (including Web application) can be parsed unambiguously and the relationships in the resulting data structure are also unambiguous.

Alternate proposal     Web-Page/Application

2.2.2 Content does not blink for more than 3 seconds, or a method is available to stop any blinking content within the Web-Page/Application.
2.4.2 A mechanism is available to bypass blocks of content that are repeated on multiple Web-Pages/Applications.
2.4.3 More than one way is available to locate content within a set of Web-Pages/Applications where content is not the result of, or a step in, a process or task.
2.4.4 Each Web-Page/Application has a title.
2.4.5 Each programmatic reference to another Web-Page/Application or to another location in the same Web-Page/Application is associated with text describing the destination.
2.4.7 When a Web-Page/Application is navigated sequentially, elements receive focus in an order that follows relationships and sequences in the content.
2.4.8 Information about the user's location within a set of Web-Pages/Applications is available.
3.1.1 The primary natural language or languages of the Web-Page/Application can be programmatically determined.
3.2.3 Navigational mechanisms that are repeated on multiple Web-Pages/Applications within a set of Web-Pages/Applications occur in the same relative order each time they are repeated unless a change is initiated by the user.
3.2.4 Components that have the same functionality within a set of Web-Pages/Applications are identified consistently.
4.1.1 Each Web-Page/Application can be parsed unambiguously and the relationships in the resulting data structure are also unambiguous.

Gregg

 -- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Professor - Ind. Engr. & BioMed Engr.
Director - Trace R & D Center
University of Wisconsin-Madison
The Player for my DSS sound file is at http://tinyurl.com/dho6b <http://tinyurl.com/cmfd9>


________________________________
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Gregg Vanderheiden
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 3:06 PM
To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: Web Pages (including Web Applications)

Hi All,

 We just settled on Web pages (and other primary resources) when we discovered today that this doesn't work.

A Web pages is "a primary resource and all of the secondary resources intended to be rendered together)"

The phrase  "other primary resources" would have to be extended to in our definition to
"Web pages (and other primary resources with their secondary resources intended to be rendered together)."

Clear this doesn't work.

Otherwise we are saying something like    "humans and other Anglo Saxons"   The second part is a subset of the first - not 'another".


SUGGEST

We change to
Web Pages (including Web Applications)

This will give us a term with two parts that both make sense

We went to the Web Applications Working Group site and it says its scope it
Client side applications

In our definition of "Web Pages (including Web Applications)"
we can make it clear we are talking about Web Apps that are client side - or the client side of them.


Gregg

------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Professor - Depts of Ind. Engr. & BioMed Engr.
Director - Trace R & D Center
University of Wisconsin-Madison
<http://trace.wisc.edu/> FAX 608/262-8848
For a list of our list discussions http://trace.wisc.edu/lists/
The Player for my DSS sound file is at http://tinyurl.com/dho6b

 <http://trace.wisc.edu:8080/mailman/listinfo/>
Received on Wednesday, 8 March 2006 19:10:51 GMT

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