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RE: Definition of idiom 2

From: Gregg Vanderheiden <gv@trace.wisc.edu>
Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2006 17:22:08 -0600
To: "'John M Slatin'" <john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu>, "'Gez Lemon'" <gez.lemon@gmail.com>
Cc: <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <007401c640ab$a13c80c0$ee8cfea9@NC6000BAK>

RE your comments John.

No phrase has the same meaning if you change the words significantly.

RE deleting the parentheticals...   I would agree except if you say "The old
may knocked over the bucket" most everyone would know what you meant.  So
that would make it not an idiom according to our definition.  However, the
only way that people do this is by first translating it back into "kicked
the bucket" then understanding it.   So we can either decide that that isn’
t a problem - or we can find another way to say this.

Thoughts every one?

I'm tempted to go with Johns suggestion, delete these, and not worry about
it.  Everyone who reads the definition will know what it means even if you
can think of a way to argue it.

So current proposal is same as #2 except delete parenteticals that talk
about figuring out that it is a poorly executed version of the idiom.


Gregg

 -- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Professor - Ind. Engr. & BioMed Engr.
Director - Trace R & D Center
University of Wisconsin-Madison
The Player for my DSS sound file is at http://tinyurl.com/dho6b

-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf
Of John M Slatin
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 4:45 PM
To: Gregg Vanderheiden; Gez Lemon
Cc: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: RE: Definition of idiom 2


This is good. I've made a couple small suggestions below, marked JS.

John

"Good design is accessible design."

Dr. John M. Slatin, Director
Accessibility Institute
University of Texas at Austin
FAC 248C
1 University Station G9600
Austin, TX 78712
ph 512-495-4288, fax 512-495-4524
email jslatin@mail.utexas.edu
Web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility



-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf
Of Gregg Vanderheiden
Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2006 4:11 PM
To: 'Gez Lemon'
Cc: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: Definition of idiom 2



Good suggestion.
That makes the proposal


<proposal>
Idiom

phrase whose meaning cannot be deduced from the meaning of the individual
words and where you can't change the wording very much without losing the
intended meaning.
JS: change "you can't change the wording very much" to "the wording cannot
be changed significantly"

Example 1: "kicking the bucket" means dying. But you can't change it to
"kicking the buckets"  or  "kicking the tub" or "booting the bucket" or
"knocking over the bucket" without losing its meaning (unless someone
converts it back into "kicking the bucket" in their head).

JS: delete the parenthetical phrase about someone converting it in their
head...

 Example 2: "spilling the beans" means revealing a secret.  However
"knocking  over the beans" or "spilling the vegetables" does not mean the
same thing  (unless someone translates it back into "spilling the beans").

JS: delete the parenthetical

 Example 3: The phrase in Japanese <span lang="jp"> さじを投げる(どうするこ
 ともできなくなり、あきらめること</span>
 literally translates into "he threw a spoon". But it means that there was
nothing he could do and finally he gave up.

 Example 4: The Dutch phrase
  <span lang="nl">Hij ging met de kippen op stok</span> literally translates
into "He went to roost with the chickens".  But it means that he went to bed
early.

</proposal>
Received on Sunday, 5 March 2006 23:22:28 GMT

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