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RE: About tests 37-41 (headers)

From: Vicente Luque Centeno <vlc@it.uc3m.es>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:28:59 +0100 (CET)
To: Jim Thatcher <jim@jimthatcher.com>
Cc: 'Johannes Koch' <koch@w3development.de>, 'WCAG' <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, chris.ridpath@utoronto.ca
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0602261611020.23486@violin.it.uc3m.es>

Answering your example:

The relationship of the last heading in document 1 and the first heading 
in document 2 is that the first in document 2 should be "prior or equal" 
to the last heading in document 1. So, if the last heading in document 1 
is, let's say h4, then the first heading of document 2 should be h1, h2, 
h3 or h4 (in my opinion it should be the same level as the "top" header 
from document 1). It could also be an h5, but if that happens, we would 
infer that document 2 is a part of document 1. It should not be an h6.

However, I must say that the concept of two documents inside a same page 
is quite ambiguous and relies on semantics difficult to be expressed. What 
we really have is a document tree being formed by different subtrees. I 
agree that some subtrees (subdocuments) might have more semantic meaning 
than others, but structure should affect all of them as well as the whole 
page/document too. So, your example, in order to be OK, should:

* Have well structured sub-document1 and sub-document2
* Both sub-documents or snippets or subtrees should be compounded in a way 
that the final result (the whole page or any other subdocument) is also 
well structured.

I assume that headings might have the following meanings:

1.- h1-h6 as chapter, section, subsection, subsubsection ...
2.- Or h1-h6 as title, chapter, section, subsection, subsubsection, ...

Best regards.

Vicente Luque Centeno
Dep. Ingeniería Telemática
Universidad Carlos III de Madrid
http://www.it.uc3m.es/vlc

On Sun, 26 Feb 2006, Jim Thatcher wrote:

> Let me try a different argument - I think my "areas" concept was too
> nebulous. My contention is that those who argue for an allowed heading
> structure are thinking of a single structured document, where for example,
> the concept of "preceding header" is obvious.
>
> What about this case? I have a web page which consists of exactly two well
> structured documents - well structured in your sense. Document one is on the
> left side; document two is on the right side (a newspaper site might have
> something like this). For specifics, let's say I did this with a table
> (shame!) so Document one is in the first cell and Document two is in the
> second cell.
>
> What is the relationship of the last heading in document 1 and the first in
> document 2? If that relation ship is "precedes" then I think the whole
> proposed structure at the beginning of this thread falls apart. If the
> relationship is not "precedes" then ... well, I don't know!
>
> Jim
>
> Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
> 512-306-0931
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vicente Luque Centeno [mailto:vlc@it.uc3m.es]
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 6:23 AM
> To: Jim Thatcher
> Cc: 'Johannes Koch'; 'WCAG'; chris.ridpath@utoronto.ca
> Subject: RE: About tests 37-41 (headers)
>
>
>
>>>> With CSS positioning the
>>>> areas can be in any order.
>>
>>> They can _appear_ (visually) in any order. But there is still a linear
>>> order when reading the document linearly.
>>
>> I am not being clear, again. What I called the areas could be (in some
>> circumstances) in any linearized (or source code) order what so ever and
> as
>> a consequence any last heading of one area could precede any area's first
>> heading.
>
> I am afraid that's only possible using CSS, and documents should still be
> readable without CSS. So, any re-order in the position made by a CSS
> should not discourage from having well structured documents anyway. No
> matter how linearization or renderization is done. The issue is to have
> well structured documents. They might be rendered in any order, of course,
> but structure is more important than renderization.
>
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
>> 512-306-0931
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
> Behalf
>> Of Johannes Koch
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:18 AM
>> To: 'WCAG'
>> Subject: Re: About tests 37-41 (headers)
>>
>>
>> Jim Thatcher wrote:
>>> I don't know what Ben's Navigation bar example is, but I suspect it is
>>> related to what I want to say. I believe that any restriction on allowed
>>> order of heading tags is wrong and based on an old fashioned (linear)
> view
>>> of a web page as a paper document. But web pages have many levels (areas)
>> of
>>> structure, Navigation bars, left or right navigation or advertising areas
>> or
>>> link areas, and, say, main content area(s). Different visually styled
>> "area
>>> headings" and "section headings" will/should appear in any and all of
>> these
>>> (perhaps in each area well structured). When you put these major sections
>>> together, there is no requirement and no predicting how the last heading
>> in
>>> one area relates to the first in another area.
>>
>> But does it make sense to have an h2 followed by an h5 _within_ one of
>> these "areas"?
>>
>>> With CSS positioning the
>>> areas can be in any order.
>>
>> They can _appear_ (visually) in any order. But there is still a linear
>> order when reading the document linearly.
>>
>> --
>> Johannes Koch
>> In te domine speravi; non confundar in aeternum.
>>                             (Te Deum, 4th cent.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
Received on Sunday, 26 February 2006 15:29:15 GMT

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