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RE: About tests 37-41 (headers)

From: Jim Thatcher <jim@jimthatcher.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:05:16 -0600
To: "'Vicente Luque Centeno'" <vlc@it.uc3m.es>
Cc: "'Johannes Koch'" <koch@w3development.de>, "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, <chris.ridpath@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <000201c63ae6$11099e90$6401a8c0@jtcom2400>

Let me try a different argument - I think my "areas" concept was too
nebulous. My contention is that those who argue for an allowed heading
structure are thinking of a single structured document, where for example,
the concept of "preceding header" is obvious.

What about this case? I have a web page which consists of exactly two well
structured documents - well structured in your sense. Document one is on the
left side; document two is on the right side (a newspaper site might have
something like this). For specifics, let's say I did this with a table
(shame!) so Document one is in the first cell and Document two is in the
second cell.

What is the relationship of the last heading in document 1 and the first in
document 2? If that relation ship is "precedes" then I think the whole
proposed structure at the beginning of this thread falls apart. If the
relationship is not "precedes" then ... well, I don't know!
 
Jim
 
Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
512-306-0931

-----Original Message-----
From: Vicente Luque Centeno [mailto:vlc@it.uc3m.es] 
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 6:23 AM
To: Jim Thatcher
Cc: 'Johannes Koch'; 'WCAG'; chris.ridpath@utoronto.ca
Subject: RE: About tests 37-41 (headers)



>>> With CSS positioning the
>>> areas can be in any order.
>
>> They can _appear_ (visually) in any order. But there is still a linear
>> order when reading the document linearly.
>
> I am not being clear, again. What I called the areas could be (in some
> circumstances) in any linearized (or source code) order what so ever and
as
> a consequence any last heading of one area could precede any area's first
> heading.

I am afraid that's only possible using CSS, and documents should still be 
readable without CSS. So, any re-order in the position made by a CSS 
should not discourage from having well structured documents anyway. No 
matter how linearization or renderization is done. The issue is to have 
well structured documents. They might be rendered in any order, of course, 
but structure is more important than renderization.

>
> Jim
>
> Accessibility Consulting: http://jimthatcher.com/
> 512-306-0931
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
Behalf
> Of Johannes Koch
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 3:18 AM
> To: 'WCAG'
> Subject: Re: About tests 37-41 (headers)
>
>
> Jim Thatcher wrote:
>> I don't know what Ben's Navigation bar example is, but I suspect it is
>> related to what I want to say. I believe that any restriction on allowed
>> order of heading tags is wrong and based on an old fashioned (linear)
view
>> of a web page as a paper document. But web pages have many levels (areas)
> of
>> structure, Navigation bars, left or right navigation or advertising areas
> or
>> link areas, and, say, main content area(s). Different visually styled
> "area
>> headings" and "section headings" will/should appear in any and all of
> these
>> (perhaps in each area well structured). When you put these major sections
>> together, there is no requirement and no predicting how the last heading
> in
>> one area relates to the first in another area.
>
> But does it make sense to have an h2 followed by an h5 _within_ one of
> these "areas"?
>
>> With CSS positioning the
>> areas can be in any order.
>
> They can _appear_ (visually) in any order. But there is still a linear
> order when reading the document linearly.
>
> -- 
> Johannes Koch
> In te domine speravi; non confundar in aeternum.
>                             (Te Deum, 4th cent.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Sunday, 26 February 2006 15:05:40 GMT

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