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RE: Bug 774 - Alternatives for word 'page'

From: Gian Sampson-Wild (PurpleTop) <gian@purpletop.com.au>
Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 13:49:56 +1000
To: "'Doyle-Work'" <dburnett@sesa.org>, "'W3C Web Content'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <010501c4389d$5c405f40$55a2ddcb@ptop>
I have a couple of reservations as well - more so on the 'readability'
of the final WCAG document. By using terms such as 'single resource',
'multiple places in a resource' we risk alienating the developers and
authors who are working on *only* web sites - they simply may not
understand WCAG.  One solution is to provide an "interpreted" version of
WCAG for the 90% of users who use it for standard web sites (and pages)
that uses these terms, such as 'page' etc.
Gian
 
-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
Behalf Of Doyle-Work
Sent: Thursday, 13 May 2004 8:02 AM
To: W3C Web Content
Subject: Re: Bug 774 - Alternatives for word 'page'
 
Hello Yvette and All -

By no means will I be a hold out but I do have some concerns about the
word page and its possible replacement (resource or whatever we come up
with in the end).  

In your definition, large resource was defined as: "large resource: Web
resources can either be perceived as a single document or as a document
collection. A resource is considered large when it contains more than
50,000 words for a single document or over 50 documents for a document
collection". 

When I think of documents, I think of a single resource only, especially
if we're using the word resource to replace the present word  "page".
In my mind, 50 documents as per above would be 50 resources.  Could a
resource be considered large if it contained limited words (or none) and
a huge file (a video clip, for example)?  

If URI (Uniform Resource Identifier) is a specific address for the
location of a resource, isn't the resource then the last "thing" in the
address string.  For example:
http://www.sesa.org/blah/blah2/blah3/etc.html where etc.html would be
the resource or page.  

I see a series of documents being the same as a series of resources.  My
question is - is a single resource the same as a single document?  Is
there any difference?  By all means, I am really confused now.  

I did run some of your new wording by one of my colleagues (it was given
out of context, by the way) and he fully understood the older wording
which used page but was puzzled by the word resource.  He explained and
I believe rightfully so, all of his web development manuals and third
party reference materials make use of the word page or document.  

Like I said, this is by no means a make it or break it issue for me but
an issue that I feel will be confusing to others.  Let's face it, a huge
percentage of web authors will be/are using web authoring tools right
out of the box and they have no clue about the "stuff" under the hood.
If we change our terminology, we need to be sure that the same is being
looked at from the authoring tools perspective.

My thoughts - thank you for all of you hard work.  
 


On 5/12/04 12:29 PM, "Yvette P. Hoitink" <y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl> wrote:
Hello everyone,

During the last telecon, I took an action item to evaluate the use of
the word 'page' throughout our current working draft. I have limited
this discussion to occurrences of the word 'page' in guideline text and
success criteria. I have reviewed the occurrence of the word 'page' in
the examples, notes and definitions and have not found any problems
since a web page is a good example in most cases and doesn't need to be
generalized for other techniques. For several of the examples, we could
do with some examples from other technologies than HTML but that's a
general problem that's not related to the use of the word 'page'. 

I have been able to come up with formulations that don't use the word
'page' for every instance of the word 'page' in guideline text or
success criteria. Some of them may have lost something in clarity
though.
Guideline 2.4 level 2, SC 2
Current wording
In documents greater than 50,000 words or sites larger than 50 perceived
pages, at least one of the following is provided:
A. hierarchical structure,
B. table of contents (for pages) or site map (for sites),
C. alternate display order (for pages) or alternate site navigation
mechanisms (for sites)
Discussion
This whole success criteria presupposes a traditional website. I think
we should abstract from the distinction between pages and websites and
reformulate this SC in more general terms that are applicable to both.
This would make the SC applicable to other types of web content like
voice XML or SVG. The techniques documents would work out the specifics
of how to apply this SC to each technology. I think the whole succes
criterion needs reformulating with the broader context in mind, it's not
just a matter of substituting the word 'page'.
Proposed wording
In #large resources#, at least one of the following is provided:
A. hierarchical structure
B. table of contents, for example a site map
C. alternate site navigation mechanisms that allow the user to determine
the order in which to navigate the resource.

Definition:
large resource:
Web resources can either be perceived as a single document or as a
document collection. A resource is considered large when it contains
more than 50,000 words for a single document or over 50 documents for a
document collection. 

site navigation mechanism:
A site navigation mechanism is a mechanism for easily orienting and
moving about within the site. Site navigation mechanisms include but are
not limited to:
*         A home page with hyperlinks on it and subsequent pages that
link to the other pages at the site 
*         site map(s) 
*         search engine(s) 
*         expanding outline(s) 
*         alternate display order(s) of the content 
*         dynamic fisheye views showing all linked pages or topics
related to any page. 
*         3-D virtual representations of site content
Guideline 2.4, level 2, SC 3
Current wording
Large blocks of material that are repeated on multiple pages, such as
navigation menus with more than 8 or more links, can be bypassed by
people who use screen readers or who navigate via keyboard or keyboard
interface.
Discussion
The word 'page' can be easily avoided here by substituting it for 'place
within the resource'. As a side effect, this guideline now becomes
applicable to repeated links on the same page as well which I think is
good. Aditionally, I have edited the 'more than 8 or more' error.
Proposed wording
Large blocks of material that are repeated in multiple places within the
resource, such as navigation menus with 8 or more links, can be bypassed
by people who use screen readers or who navigate via keyboard or
keyboard interface.
Guideline 2.4, level 3, SC 4c
Current wording
Supplying an informative title for each page or resource that can be
accessed independently (for example, from a search results page)
Discussion
Since a page is a resource that can be accessed independently, we can
just delete 'page' here. 'page' can remain in the for example part
because it's just an example and not the guideline itself. BTW, I prefer
if we use a more direct formulation, for example "Supply a title"
instead of "supplying a title" but that's for another editor.
Proposed wording
Supplying an informative title for each resource that can be accessed
independently (for example, from a search results page)
Guideline 2.4, level 3, SC 4d
Current wording
Supplying a unique title for each page or resource that can be accessed
independently (for example, from a search results page)
Discussion
Same as above, SC 4c.
Proposed wording
Supplying a unique title for each resource that can be accessed
independently (for example, from a search results page)
Guideline 3.1, level 1, SC 1
Current wording
Page titles are informative.
Discussion
What's the difference with Guideline 2.4, level 3, SC 4c mentioned
above? Or do we mean, "if you use a page title, make sure it is
informative". Unless I understand what is meant, I doubt I will come up
with a good new wording.
Proposed wording
Titles of resources are informative. 
Guideline 3.1, level 3, SC 4, strategy alternative representations
bullet 2
Current wording
Adding non-text content to the site for key pages or sections
specifically to make the site more understandable by users who cannot
understand the text only version of the site. 
Discussion
If we reformulate using 'parts of the resource' we don't need the
distinction between pages and sections anymore. I dislike the word 'key'
in the sense of 'important' because of the association with the typing
thingies. I had to read the sentence twice because at first I didn't
know where 'specifically' was associated with. My proposed wording
suggests a solution for these problems as well.
Proposed wording
Adding non-text content to the site for important parts of the resource
to make the site more understandable by users who cannot understand the
text only version of the site.  
Guideline 3.1, level 3, SC 4, strategy alternative representations
bullet 3
Current wording
Using page design, graphics, color, fonts, animations, video, or audio
to clarify complex text.
Discussion
"page design" includes graphics, color, fonts, etc. The term sounds
broader than we mean. I suggest using 'layout' instead. 
Proposed wording
Using layout, graphics, color, fonts, animations, video, or audio to
clarify complex text.
 
Guideline 3.1, level 3, SC 4, strategy alternative representations
bullet 4
Current wording
Including non-text content to supplement text for key pages or sections
of the site.
Discussion
See above, bullet 2.
Proposed wording
Including non-text content to supplement text for important parts of the
resource.
Guideline 3.2, guideline text
Current wording
Organize content consistently from "page to page" and make interactive
components behave in predictable ways.
Discussion
I have explained my preference for the wording for 3.2 in the thread
'Suggestion for this editorial note' in my e-mail from May 2, 2004. [1]
Proposed wording
Organize content consistently throughout the resource and make
interactive components behave in predictable ways.
Guideline 3.2, level 2, SC 1
Current wording
Components that are repeated on multiple "pages" within a resource or a
section of a resource occur in the same sequence each time they are
repeated, for at least one presentation format. 
Proposed wording
Components that are repeated in different places within the resource
occur
in the same sequence each time they are repeated, for at least one
presentation format.
Guideline 3.2, level 2, SC 3
Current wording
Changing the setting of any input field should not automatically cause
an #extreme change in context# such as leaving the "page." 
Proposed wording
Changing the setting of any input field should not automatically cause
an #extreme change in context# such as changing the current location
within the resource. 

Guideline 3.2, level 2, SC 4
Current wording
Interactive elements that appear on multiple "pages," including
graphical elements, are associated with the same functionality wherever
they appear.
Proposed wording
Interactive elements that appear in different places within the
resource, including graphical elements, are associated with the same
functionality wherever they appear.
Guideline 3.2, level 3, SC 2
Current wording
Graphical components that appear on multiple pages, including graphical
links, are associated with the same text equivalents wherever they
appear.
Proposed wording
Graphical components that appear in different places within the
resource, including graphical links, are associated with the same text
equivalents wherever they appear.
Guideline 3.2, level 3, SC 3
Current wording
Components that appear visually on multiple pages, such as navigation
bars, search forms, and sections within the main content, are displayed
in the same location relative to other content on every page or screen
where they appear. 
Proposed wording
Components that appear visually in different places within the resource,
such as navigation bars, search forms, and sections within the main
content, are displayed in the same location relative to other content
each time they appear. 
Guideline 3.2, level 3, SC 4
Current wording
When components such as navigation menus and search forms appear on
multiple pages, users can choose to have those elements presented in a
different visual position or reading-order. 
Proposed wording
When components such as navigation menus and search forms appear in
different places within the resource, users can choose to have those
elements presented in a different visual position or reading-order. 

 
Yvette Hoitink
Heritas, Enschede, the Netherlands
E-mail: y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl
WWW: http://www.heritas.nl

[1]. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0223.html

 
Received on Wednesday, 12 May 2004 23:50:33 GMT

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