RE: Examples of language changes in websites

Context isn't machine-testable.  However, it's probably possible to design user-testing scenarios that would effectively capture whether a word or phrase strikes users as "foreign" when encountered in a specific context, and whether or not language markup makes a difference to comprehension.
 
John
 


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-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Kerstin Goldsmith
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:15 pm
To: Montgomery, Gordon
Cc: Craddock, Michael P; Yvette P. Hoitink; Doyle Burnett; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: Re: Examples of language changes in websites


But are these testable?

-Kerstin

Montgomery, Gordon wrote:


	Surely the deciding factors are:
	1. context
	2. audience
	 
	Firstly, any ambiguous words should be marked up - not only in the accessibility sense but where those words are not core to the language
	in question - and for all possible user types. The markup should be:
	<foreign>...</foreign> or some such meaningful tag.
	 
	To decide if a word or phase is foreign to the language context it is 
	written in, one criteria would be to see if the author's spell and grammar checker picks it up. That's, of course, if the author does not know themselves that the word is "foreign" [in the broadest sense of that word].
	 
	So: looking at the ambiguity of /résumé/
	 
	1. Context:
	When a user has their browser set to "french" then all the french words
	around our "ambiguous" word should guide how a screen reader reads the
	"ambiguous" word - i.e. as regular french
	 
	Conversely, "le weekend" is pronounced with French intonation by French people.
	 
	Where /résumé/ appears in an English language context then by default
	the local language intonation should apply e.g. English.
	 
	2. Audience:
	When /résumé/ appears in a non-French language context then the audience rule applies. 
	There needs to be not only a language setting but and internationalization  setting that says: "pronounce borrowed foreign words with their "native/foreign" or "local" intontation.
	 
	Finally, usually as a block of text is translated from one language to another the foreign/borrowed/ambiguous words remain the same.
	This situation is only trumped when the context language is the same as the ambiguous word or there is a more commonly used local word in the context 
	language that better captures the sense of the word for the context audience.
	 
	[i]US English > [ii]UK English > [iii]French > [iv]German
	 
	[i]    Where is your résumé?
	[ii]    Where is your CV?
	[iii]   Ou est ton curriculum vitae? [missing accents]
	[iv]   Wo ist dein Lebenslauf?
	 
	

	Thanks, 
	Gordon 
	--------------------- 
	Gordon Montgomery 
	Usability Manager 
	+508 253 2405 

	 

		-----Original Message-----
		From: Kerstin Goldsmith [mailto:kerstin.goldsmith@oracle.com] 
		Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:15 PM
		To: Craddock, Michael P
		Cc: Yvette P. Hoitink; Doyle Burnett; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
		Subject: Re: Examples of language changes in websites
		
		
		I think we need to bring this back out to the question "in question," though - here, we have only solved one small problem.  Can we legislate this kind of change?  And, if yes, or if no, how do we answer Richard Ishida's question: what constitutes language change that MUST be marked up, and what constitutes language change that SHOULD be marked up, etc.
		
		-kerstin
		
		Craddock, Michael P wrote:
		

			We've run into terminology issues here at Boeing, not as a screen reader problem but as a usability issue, and have recently switched from "sitemap" (one word, which is common) to "text index" which we found more commonly used and descriptive. Maybe this small change could help? 
			
			Thank you,
			michaelcraddock
			The Boeing Company
			multimediadesignengineer
			p 312.544.2931 | c 312.371.8134 | f 312.544.2082 | w www.boeing.com/
			
			"doog si efil"-mirror me
			
			-----Original Message-----
			From: Yvette P. Hoitink [mailto:y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl] 
			Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 1:23 PM
			To: 'Doyle Burnett'; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
			Subject: RE: Examples of language changes in websites
			
			
			In Dutch, the word 'sitemap' (one word) is used a lot. This is yet another
			example of the Dutch habit of glueing words together, which is gramatically
			correct in Dutch. This is so normal for me I didn't even recognize this as
			not being entirely English...
			
			Dutchmen pronounce 'sitemap' with the English pronounciation. It is not
			(yet) in the Dutch standard wordlist. Just like the word 'cadeaushoppen',
			this is another example of a word whose language cannot be identified within
			the current HTML standards since it's neither Dutch nor English.
			
			Yvette Hoitink
			CEO Heritas, Enschede, The Netherlands
			E-mail: y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl
			
			  

				-----Original Message-----
				From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org 
				[mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Doyle Burnett
				Sent: donderdag 4 december 2003 20:00 
				
				I believe the term is site map (two words) and yes, if 
				written as a single word, sitemap - screen readers will not 
				pronounce the word as would be desired.  
				
				Doyle
				
				
				On 12/4/03 8:17 AM, "Kynn Bartlett" <kynn@idyllmtn.com> <mailto:kynn@idyllmtn.com>  wrote:
				
				    

					On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 04:44 AM, Ineke van der 
					      

				Maat wrote:
				    

					Sitemap is not an official word  in German or Dutch and can be 
					pronounced by screenreaders in Dutch as sietemap (ie as ea in sea 
					,just like bietensap or fietstas).
					        

					English screenreaders sometimes have said "sigh tuh map", for this 
					word, rather than "site map".
					
					--Kynn