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Re: Examples of language changes in websites

From: Kerstin Goldsmith <kerstin.goldsmith@oracle.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 15:15:20 -0800
Message-ID: <3FCFC008.1050005@oracle.com>
To: "Montgomery, Gordon" <Gordon.Montgomery@Staples.com>
Cc: "Craddock, Michael P" <michael.p.craddock@BOEING.COM>, "Yvette P. Hoitink" <y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl>, Doyle Burnett <dburnett@sesa.org>, w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
But are these testable?

-Kerstin

Montgomery, Gordon wrote:

> Surely the deciding factors are:
> 1. context
> 2. audience
>  
> Firstly, any ambiguous words should be marked up - not only in the 
> accessibility sense but where those words are not core to the language
> in question - and for all possible user types. The markup should be:
> <foreign>...</foreign> or some such meaningful tag.
>  
> To decide if a word or phase is foreign to the language context it is
> written in, one criteria would be to see if the author's spell and 
> grammar checker picks it up. That's, of course, if the author does not 
> know themselves that the word is "foreign" [in the broadest sense of 
> that word].
>  
> So: looking at the ambiguity of /résumé/
>  
> 1. Context:
> When a user has their browser set to "french" then all the french words
> around our "ambiguous" word should guide how a screen reader reads the
> "ambiguous" word - i.e. as regular french
>  
> Conversely, "le weekend" is pronounced with French intonation by 
> French people.
>  
> Where /résumé/ appears in an English language context then by default
> the local language intonation should apply e.g. English.
>  
> 2. Audience:
> When /résumé/ appears in a non-French language context then the 
> audience rule applies.
> There needs to be not only a language setting but and 
> internationalization  setting that says: "pronounce borrowed foreign 
> words with their "native/foreign" or "local" intontation.
>  
> Finally, usually as a block of text is translated from one language to 
> another the foreign/borrowed/ambiguous words remain the same.
> This situation is only trumped when the context language is the same 
> as the ambiguous word or there is a more commonly used local word in 
> the context
> language that better captures the sense of the word for the context 
> audience.
>  
> [i]US English > [ii]UK English > [iii]French > [iv]German
>  
> [i]    Where is your résumé?
> [ii]    Where is your CV?
> [iii]   Ou est ton curriculum vitae? [missing accents]
> [iv]   Wo ist dein Lebenslauf?
>  
>
> Thanks,
> Gordon
> ---------------------
> Gordon Montgomery
> Usability Manager
> +508 253 2405
>
>  
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Kerstin Goldsmith [mailto:kerstin.goldsmith@oracle.com]
>     Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:15 PM
>     To: Craddock, Michael P
>     Cc: Yvette P. Hoitink; Doyle Burnett; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>     Subject: Re: Examples of language changes in websites
>
>     I think we need to bring this back out to the question "in
>     question," though - here, we have only solved one small problem. 
>     Can we legislate this kind of change?  And, if yes, or if no, how
>     do we answer Richard Ishida's question: what constitutes language
>     change that MUST be marked up, and what constitutes language
>     change that SHOULD be marked up, etc.
>
>     -kerstin
>
>     Craddock, Michael P wrote:
>
>>We've run into terminology issues here at Boeing, not as a screen reader problem but as a usability issue, and have recently switched from "sitemap" (one word, which is common) to "text index" which we found more commonly used and descriptive. Maybe this small change could help? 
>>
>>Thank you,
>>michaelcraddock
>>The Boeing Company
>>multimediadesignengineer
>>p 312.544.2931 | c 312.371.8134 | f 312.544.2082 | w www.boeing.com/
>>
>>"doog si efil"-mirror me
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Yvette P. Hoitink [mailto:y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl] 
>>Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 1:23 PM
>>To: 'Doyle Burnett'; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>>Subject: RE: Examples of language changes in websites
>>
>>
>>In Dutch, the word 'sitemap' (one word) is used a lot. This is yet another
>>example of the Dutch habit of glueing words together, which is gramatically
>>correct in Dutch. This is so normal for me I didn't even recognize this as
>>not being entirely English...
>>
>>Dutchmen pronounce 'sitemap' with the English pronounciation. It is not
>>(yet) in the Dutch standard wordlist. Just like the word 'cadeaushoppen',
>>this is another example of a word whose language cannot be identified within
>>the current HTML standards since it's neither Dutch nor English.
>>
>>Yvette Hoitink
>>CEO Heritas, Enschede, The Netherlands
>>E-mail: y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl
>>
>>  
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org 
>>>[mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Doyle Burnett
>>>Sent: donderdag 4 december 2003 20:00 
>>>
>>>I believe the term is site map (two words) and yes, if 
>>>written as a single word, sitemap - screen readers will not 
>>>pronounce the word as would be desired.  
>>>
>>>Doyle
>>>
>>>
>>>On 12/4/03 8:17 AM, "Kynn Bartlett" <kynn@idyllmtn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>>>>On Thursday, December 4, 2003, at 04:44 AM, Ineke van der 
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>Maat wrote:
>>>    
>>>
>>>>>Sitemap is not an official word  in German or Dutch and can be 
>>>>>pronounced by screenreaders in Dutch as sietemap (ie as ea in sea 
>>>>>,just like bietensap or fietstas).
>>>>>        
>>>>>
>>>>English screenreaders sometimes have said "sigh tuh map", for this 
>>>>word, rather than "site map".
>>>>
>>>>--Kynn
>>>>      
>>>>
>>
>>  
>>
Received on Thursday, 4 December 2003 18:15:37 GMT

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