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[techs] Re: HTML techniques - Embedded objects (no blocker)

From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 08:37:57 -0500 (EST)
To: Roberto Ellero <rellero@webaccessibile.org>
Cc: "Yvette P. Hoitink" <y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl>, w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.55.0311020832130.22329@homer.w3.org>

It is possible to have both the embed element and validity - this was what
the modularisation of XHTML was designed to allow.

You simply need to create a DTD that includes HTML and allows embed to be
included - essentially by adding a module for it. If we are going to propose
the possiblity of doing this we should create the appropriate DTD and show
how to include it in the document...

Support for object in Internet Explorer isn't that great - it prefers to be
told exactly which plugin to use for code, which is a problem for anyone who
wants to develop a more accceissble plugin or a specialised one for some kind
of content. But it isn't unsupported either - and only really broken for

Support for object in browsers goes back to 1998 versions of Explorer
and Netscape, and is now pretty standard. It would be good to have some more
clear information about exact levels of support - does anyone have a
favourite reference for comprehensive information about what browsers really



On Sat, 1 Nov 2003, Roberto Ellero wrote:

>> If we do want to include techniques for obsolete elements for backwards
>> compatibility purposes, this should be made explicit with each technique
>> that uses them.
>I agree, and I think that the current example for movies (Flash-only):
><embed src="moviename.swf" width="100" height="80"
>      pluginspage="http://example.com/shockwave/download/" />
>  <noembed>
>    <img alt="Still from Movie" src="moviename.gif"
>    width="100" height="80" />
>  </noembed>
>may be misleading, as it is available a good solution for swf files, by Drew
>McLellan in an article in A List Apart
>http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/, that in synthesis leads to a
>code like this:
><object type="application/x-shockwave-flash" data="file.swf"
> width="100" height="100">
> <param name="movie" value="file.swf" />
> <a href="page.htm"><img src="noflash.gif" width="100" height="100" alt="alt
>text" /></a>&nbsp;
>It is valid, and if the browser doesn't play objects with a MIME type of
>application/x-shockwave-flash, it will go for the next child element (in the
>example img, but may be a text).
>Roberto Ellero
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Yvette P. Hoitink" <y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl>
>To: <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:16 PM
>Subject: HTML techniques - Embedded objects (no blocker)
>> In the HTML techniques document, there is two techniques for the Embed
>> element,  called "Alt content for embed":
>> and Alt text for embed.
>> However, EMBED is no longer supported in HTML4+. I do not think we should
>> give techniques for elements that are no longer in the HTML specification.
>> If we do want to include techniques for obsolete elements for backwards
>> compatibility purposes, this should be made explicit with each technique
>> that uses them.
>> In the next section below, called "Embedding multimedia objects", it does
>> mention that you should use EMBED within OBJECT for backward
>> however it does not say that EMBED is no longer part of the specification
>> and will lead to invalid documents. If I were a casual visitor, I would
>> think that OBJECT is the preferred way, but also that EMBED is still
>> which is not the case.
>> Also, I think we should include some more examples of how to embed a movie
>> or sound fragment (for example an AVI or WAV file). I am currently
>> a website with some movies and sounds, but have had a very hard time
>> out how to make this accessible and cross-browser. My added problem was
>> we create these pages on the fly (server-side), without knowing the actual
>> width and height of the movies.
>> The current example for movies are Flash-only, where there normally is one
>> designated plugin. This is contrary to other movies which can use
>> programs to be played, depending on the user's preferences, operating
>> system, browser, etc.
>> Yvette Hoitink
>> CEO Heritas, Enschede, The Netherlands

Charles McCathieNevile  http://www.w3.org/People/Charles  tel: +61 409 134 136
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Received on Sunday, 2 November 2003 08:38:23 UTC

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