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Re[2]: FW: acronym in title...

From: Al Gilman <asgilman@iamdigex.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 09:57:29 -0500
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030313092101.029db4a0@pop.iamdigex.net>
To: <ishida@w3.org>, <w3c-i18n-ig@w3.org>, <public-i18n-geo@w3.org>
Cc: <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>

At 07:36 AM 2003-03-13, Richard Ishida wrote:
[Place all 'localisable' i.e. natural language text in elements, not 
attributes.]

<new>

I think that the one thing I should add right away is that there
is an option using "annotation" techniques to leave the attribute as is
and introduce a higher-quality equivalent through a structure which
refers to the attribute.

This issue is coupled with providing clarifying information for natural
language in all kinds of texts.  PF will have a page in public on this topic
in a few days.

</new>

The PF history here is that lately we have been arguing for the SVG model over
the HTML model for this reason.  We just haven't got HTML to absorb the SVG
model in this regard yet.

HOWEVER, just what the structures should be is not necessarily given a 
final answer
in the svg:title svg:desc pair of element types.  This is related to the thread
about "Should a browser use the ALT string as a tooltip?" running on the UA 
list.

  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2003JanMar/thread.html#43

It's a genuine issue, the accessibility concerns are sympathetic with what 
Richard
has suggested, but we still need a well-formed process to reduce this to 
features
in the XHTML 2.0 specification.

Al

>Dear I18N IG and GEO TF,
>
>Please see the attached note for a real-life instance of a person
>wanting to apply markup (span and abbr) within the <title> element.
>(This element only supports PCDATA in HTML4.01 and XHTML2.0). The need
>below is raised due to accessibility concerns. There may also be
>requirements to apply other phrasal markup, for example a span to
>support bidi attributes in Arabic and Hebrew contexts.  I'd like to
>propose that the HTML group introduce support for phrasal markup in the
>title element in XHTML 2.0 (I assume it's too late for HTML 4.01).
>
>We can also make this request more generic.  In a recent paper I argued
>that dtd designers should avoid putting ANY localisable text into
>attributes where possible.  An example of this is the alt attribute in
>HTML 4.01.  The text in alt sometimes needs span or bdo elements to
>support bidirectionality or language changes (particularly for voice
>browsers).  In principle other phrasal tags could be useful too, such as
>em.  To assist localisation it would also be very useful to be able to
>attach an id to the alt text.  (In DTDs I design myself, I have used an
>image element that includes separate graphic and alt elements to get
>around this.)
>
>Although it perhaps presents a somewhat more difficult case, the title
>attribute calls for the same treatment.  In addition, it is quite
>possible that the title text is in a different language to the text in
>the element to which it is attached.  How do you make that clear if the
>title text is in an attribute?
>
>So I'm proposing that we ask the HTML group to consider:
>1.      allowing phrasal markup on the title element for XHTML2
>2.      avoiding the use of attributes containing localisable text
>wherever feasible
>
>Comments? Thoughts?
>
>RI
>
>
>
>============
>Richard Ishida
>W3C
>
>tel: +44 1753 480 292
>http://www.w3.org/International/
>http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
>Behalf Of Roberto Scano - IWA/HWG
>Sent: 11 March 2003 09:47
>To: WCAG List
>Subject: acronym in title...
>
>
>
>
>I forward the question of an IWA member:
>
>----
>I have a small issue that I am hoping you can help me with.  I am trying
>to create web pages with the new standard XTML, following the rules for
>accessibility set down by WCAG and Internationalizations..
>
>1) Example: "<title>Home Page - Spiegazioni della direttiva WCAG del
>World Wide Web Consortium</title>"
>     On this example there is a mix of english words and italian words
>because the page is wrote in italian language and is related to argument
>that could not be translated in italian. I can understand that I can use
>"Pagina Principale" instead of "Home Page" even if is not so nice, but I
>should use <acronym> for WCAG and english spelling for "World Wide Web
>Consortium". I repeat this is only an example but the concept is: how
>can I switch language or how can I show acronyms inside "string"
>attribute?
Received on Thursday, 13 March 2003 16:12:34 GMT

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