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Re: [166] Organize documents so they may be read without style sheets

From: Jonathan O'Donnell <jonathan.odonnell@ngv.vic.gov.au>
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 20:44:57 +1000
To: Joe Clark <joeclark@joeclark.org>, WAI <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <BB2651C9.3600%jonathan.odonnell@ngv.vic.gov.au>

On 26/06/2003 2:17 AM, Joe Clark at joeclark@joeclark.org wrote:

>> Here are some examples of documents that differ when rendered
>> without a style sheet (or with a browser's default style sheet).  I
>> hope that this helps to clarify the discussion.
> This is valuable and, indeed, surprising information. Now, could we
> run the same test on the tiny number of W3C members with valid-HTML
> homepages?
> <http://www.markokarppinen.com/20020822.html>
> If we see the same effects there-- and let's assume valid CSS, which
> is even less prevalent than valid HTML-- then we've certainly got
> something to talk about. Now, whether we have something to *regulate*
> in WCAG 2.0 is a separate question.

Hello Joe and all

Following Joe's suggestion, I tested pages drawn from "Things can only get
better", by Marko Karppinen

The sample set was small, and didn't show any real differences.  Only three
pages showed any semantic difference at all, and I suspect that none of them
had anything to do with CSS. Does anyone have a bigger sample set of pages
with valid HTML and CSS?

The following pages exhibited differences:

Equal Access Testing Pty Ltd.
There is huge amounts of white space between the text when style sheets are
turned off.
Not really a semantic difference, I guess.

Royal National Institute for the Blind (RNIB)
Without style sheets, I can't scroll to the bottom of the page (there is no
scroll bar).  Therefore, I can't reach the copyright statement.  This may
just be a Windows Netscape Communicator 4.79 bug, rather than a html/css

Western Australian Department of Industry and Technology
    http://www.indtech.wa.gov.au/new/index-text.htm (no CSS)
    http://www.indtech.wa.gov.au/new/index.htm (with CSS)
The server delivered two different pages.  The non-CSS page does not have
three sentences that the CSS page has.  It looks like three links that were
added to one version but not the other.

I rendered pages without CSS (ie with basic browser rendering) on Windows
Netscape Communicator 4.79
I rendered pages with CSS on Windows Internet Explorer 6.0
I tested these pages on 28 June 2003, between about 7 pm and 8 pm Australian
Eastern Standard Time.

Jonathan O'Donnell
04 2575 5829
Received on Monday, 30 June 2003 19:07:24 UTC

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