W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-gl@w3.org > July to September 2002

fancy talk about "plain language" [was: RE: Proposed 4.1 wording ...]

From: Al Gilman <asgilman@iamdigex.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:35:55 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020829090735.02098b70@pop.iamdigex.net>
To: gv@trace.wisc.edu, "'Lisa Seeman'" <seeman@netvision.net.il>, "'Avi Arditti'" <aardit@voanews.com>, w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Cc: Bengt.Farre@androtech.se

At 08:13 AM 2002-08-29, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:

>Hmmmmm
>
>I think using a term  like  "plain language"  to mean more than language
>(that is, including structure,  formatting,  illustration and all other
>things that can be used to make writing easier to understand).
>
>"plain language"   may be a term of art in some field,  but I would
>think we might chose a term that translates more directly from the words
>used to the meaning we intend.

I don't think we're going to find anything better.

In plain English the term for what we wish to connote is "plain English."

This fails the W3C ethical guideline "insofar as possible avoid the
appearance of bias with regard to language and national origin."

As close to "plain English" as we can come in politically correct
English is "plain language."  I don't see us coming up with another
way of saying this briefly which is both

- as clear from a base in the most commonly used subset of English

- sufficiently language-group neutral

Al

PS:

For a term that applies across media an includes the expository-structure
idioms of genres (such as title-bar at the top, navbar on the left in LTR
languages) as well as language structures, use "vernacular idiom."

But this concept, understood that broadly, is exotic.  This broad notion
does not exist in the vernacular base of commonly understood notions.  Its
OK to use highfalutin' language for this idea, because it is an advanced
concept to begin with.

PPS:

Hypertext is a medium.  Web portal is a medium.

Web Store (Amazon) is a genre, as is "community hub" (slashdot).  Idioms for
page organization exist at the level of site similarity group where you do
similar things there.

>Thanks.
>
>Gregg
>
>------------------------------------
>Gregg Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>Ind Engr - Biomed - Trace, Univ of Wis
>gv@trace.wisc.edu
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On
>Behalf Of Lisa Seeman
>Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 4:09 PM
>To: 'Avi Arditti'; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>Cc: Bengt.Farre@androtech.se; 'Lisa Seeman'
>Subject: Proposed 4.1 wording for discussion and new proposal
>
>
>I very much liked the simplification of Checkpoint 4.1 to  "Use plain
>language"
>I think it implies all the considerations that we had in wording this
>checkpoint. If using simpler word has changed the meaning of the
>sentence
>then you are not using plain language, but rubbish (be it simple
>rubbish).
>Plain language implies some ((un)common since.
>
>In terms of the success criteria, the list is still incomplete as we are
>aweighting the complete list from Ben,
>But its layout is interesting. It does not follow the formulary for
>success
>criteria that we have been working on at all. But does follow the spirit
>of
>the success criteria so eloquently described by Jason - who I will now
>attempt to misquote....
>
>Level one implies they you have attempted to address these issues, some
>what. Level two is were you have taken it to a further level, and level
>three is were you have done everything you could do. (sorry Jason, I
>just do
>not have your eloquence)
>
>Other then that I have (of course) problems with the wording of the both
>the
>list and the success criteria. But the approach is an interesting one.
>
>I would make the levels at (this is the new proposal bit) :
>success criteria level one: Adopting consistently (Implementing ) a
>quarter
>of the elements listed below,
>success criteria  level two: Implementing half elements listed below,
>success criteria  level three : Implementing all the elements listed
>bellow
>( the whole thing) OR a format/extra information that allowed automatic
>and
>correct conversion to plain language (yup - ILS).
>
>Then we need only include in the list testable criteria, but with no
>concern
>for appropriateness.
>
>The beauty of this approach is that on every page you can find 1/4 plain
>language ideas that work and are suitable, even if any one by themselves
>can
>not be applied across the board. If this is not the case, then 1/4 is
>too
>high and we make lower - until we get something workable.
>
>Flexible, robust and enduring...
>
>All the best,
>
>Lisa Seeman
>
>UnBounded Access
>
>Widen the World Web
>
>http://www.UBaccess.com
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Avi Arditti [mailto:aardit@voanews.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 4:28 PM
>To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>Cc: Bengt.Farre@androtech.se; Lisa Seeman
>Subject: Re: Proposed 4.1 wording for discussion
>
>
>Greetings to all,
>
>I would like to propose some ideas for checkpoint 4.1 in an effort to
>revive and narrow the discussion. What I have written incorporates ideas
>that Bengt, Lisa (by phone) and I discussed at the Linz f2f. It also
>incorporates some wording from the current draft of 2.0. And it attempts
>to deal with concerns raised during telecons.
>
>I await comments and suggestions. As we say in American slang, bring it
>on! (But please be judicious with the trash talk.)
>
>Avi Arditti
>Senior News Editor - Web Editor
>Voice of America, Special English Branch
>Washington, DC 20237 USA
>(202) 619-0927 | (202) 619-2543 fax
>aardit@voa.gov | www.voaspecialenglish.com | www.plainlanguage.gov
Received on Thursday, 29 August 2002 09:36:46 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Monday, 7 December 2009 10:47:20 GMT