RE: Extensive forms

Hi Jim,
 
Wendy Chisholm was gracious enough to put me in touch with Matt May who is
editing the WCAG 2.0 He is going to incorporate the technique into them. So
this should be in there when those are released. 
 
Eugenia

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Thatcher [mailto:thatch@attglobal.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 7:52 PM
To: Slaydon, Eugenia; jimallan@tsbvi.ed; Strothers, Tracy;
asgilman@iamdigex.net; jongund@staff.uiuc.edu; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Cc: Don_Barrett@ed.gov
Subject: RE: Extensive forms


Hi Eugina,
 
Sorry for being so long in responding, Frankly, I was hoping others would
respond since I am not active in the Guideline working group.
 
Title on the INPUT elements is, like the LABEL element, a technique for a
guideline, not itself a guideline (or checkpoint). But it is a "strong"
technique since it is included in the checkpoint as a "for example." I would
think that if (the major) user agents are supporting title on input
elements, then it would be a technique suggested for the appropriate
guideline.

Jim
jim@jimthatcher.com
Accessibility Consulting
http://jimthatcher.com <http://jimthatcher.com/> 
512-306-0931 

-----Original Message-----
From: Slaydon, Eugenia [mailto:ESlaydon@beacontec.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 4:15 PM
To: Slaydon, Eugenia; 'jim@jimthatcher.com'; 'w3c-wai-gl@w3.org';
'jimallan@tsbvi.ed'; Strothers, Tracy; 'asgilman@iamdigex.net';
'jongund@staff.uiuc.edu'; 'ij@w3.org'; 'oedipus@hicom.net'
Cc: 'Don_Barrett@ed.gov'
Subject: RE: Extensive forms


Does anyone know if this recommendation of TITLE in INPUT will be part of
the WCAG 2.0 guidelines? Changes to the BOBBY software by CAST will be done
based on those quideslines. If not, how do I go about getting it in place as
a guideline?
 
thanks,
Eugenia

-----Original Message-----
From: Slaydon, Eugenia 
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 11:20 AM
To: 'jim@jimthatcher.com'; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org; jimallan@tsbvi.ed;
asgilman@iamdigex.net; jongund@staff.uiuc.edu; ij@w3.org; oedipus@hicom.net
Cc: Don_Barrett@ed.gov
Subject: RE: Extensive forms


Thanks Jim. I've also tried a 5.5 version and couldn't duplicate the
"blinking" text. I'm going with TITLE in my input fields as well as SCOPE on
my td tags. HPR seems to do very well with the SCOPE even if the TITLE
ability isn't turned on. JAWS doesn't like my form page at all. It gets
stuck on the first line. I hope that the update/patch will correct this. I
haven't tried Window-eyes. Have you tested it against my form page?
 
Eugenia

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Thatcher [mailto:thatch@attglobal.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 4:26 PM
To: Slaydon, Eugenia; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org; jimallan@tsbvi.ed;
asgilman@iamdigex.net; jongund@staff.uiuc.edu; ij@w3.org; oedipus@hicom.net
Cc: Don_Barrett@ed.gov
Subject: RE: Extensive forms


I haven't experienced the "blinking" that Jim Allan talked about. I wonder
how serious it is. The sighted user moves the mouse to one of the input
areas and starts typing. What happens. Does the title keep popping up? 
 
I forgot that I had 5.5 on a different computer and tried it there.
Sometimes the title pops up and disappears. It does not continue blinking. I
think this is not a problem.
 
The title for input areas is such a good solution to a tough problem. I have
a simplified version of Eugenia's form at (
http://jimthatcher.com/SimpleFormWithTitles.htm
<http://jimthatcher.com/SimpleFormWithTitles.htm> ). It is also the form I
advocate at the end of the section on accessible forms in the ITTATC Web
Accessibility Course ( http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse8.htm
<http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse8.htm> ). I would like to hear what others
feel about the "blinking concern" in IE 5.5 title popup. 
 
After discussion with the JFW developer yesterday, it is definite that
support for titles will be in a soon to be released update/patch. As I
mentioned before, HPR will support the title attribute and Window-Eyes
already does support it.

Jim
jim@jimthatcher.com
Accessibility Consulting
http://jimthatcher.com <http://jimthatcher.com/> 
512-306-0931 

-----Original Message-----
From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]On Behalf
Of Slaydon, Eugenia
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:44 AM
To: 'w3c-wai-gl@w3.org'; 'jimallan@tsbvi.ed'; 'asgilman@iamdigex.net';
'jongund@staff.uiuc.edu'; 'ij@w3.org'; 'oedipus@hicom.net';
'thatch@attglobal.net'
Cc: 'Don_Barrett@ed.gov'
Subject: RE: Extensive forms 


I want to apologize for the other message earlier today about question
between ALT and TITLE, 
somehow I managed to miss Al's posting on 4/25 about ALT not displaying.
Thank  you Al. I am 
concerned about Jim's find of the blinking test with a title attribute on IE
5.5. That isn't occuring in 
IE 5.0 or NN 6.0. But I really don't want blinking text since that's a whole
other issue. Sounds like 
I'm stuck again. ALT doesn't work. TITLE is blinking in IE 5.5. LABEL can't
handle it. So if I fix 
the form with TITLE and SCOPE which seems to work great with Homepage
Reader, then I 
make it blink for IE 5.5 users. I realize that the TITLE won't show up as a
tool tip popup for NN 
4.x or some other browsers. That really doesn't worry me. If someone can
"see" the form then the 
popup mouseover isn't necessary (actually I would rather it not be there at
all - especially if it 
blinks!). ALT doesn't popup but the screen readers aren't reading it. So
suggestions? How is this 
handled in the future?
 
Eugenia
 
  RE: Extensive forms & tables accessibility question
 
  From: Jim Allan ( jimallan@tsbvi.edu <mailto:jimallan@tsbvi.edu> )
  Date: Wed, Apr 25 2001
 
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  Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:06:11 -0500
  From: Jim Allan < jimallan@tsbvi.edu <mailto:jimallan@tsbvi.edu> >
  To: Al Gilman < asgilman@iamdigex.net <mailto:asgilman@iamdigex.net> >,
w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> 
  Message-id: < NBBBIBAJLBJPFGFFMBMEIEEPFAAA.jimallan@tsbvi.edu
<mailto:NBBBIBAJLBJPFGFFMBMEIEEPFAAA.jimallan@tsbvi.edu> >
  Subject: RE: Extensive forms & tables accessibility question
 
  I checked out Eugenia's page and found a curious phenomena...
  In IE 5.5 when I put the mouse over an INPUT the tool tip does pop up but
  FLASHES on and off. This was very distracting. (seems to flash at 2 times
  the speed of the cursor blink, it flashes when the cursor is in an INPUT
or
  when no INPUT as a cursor in it).
  In Netscape 4.7 nothing is displayed
  In Opera 5.1 nothing is displayed.
  Jim Allan, Webmaster & Statewide Technical Support Specialist
  Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
  1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
  voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
<http://www.tsbvi.edu/> 
  "I see the Earth. It is so beautiful."--
  first words spoken by human in space.
  [Yuri Alekseevich Gagarin, from the Vostok 1, April 12, 1961.]
 
    -----Original Message-----
    From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org>  [
mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org> ]On
  Behalf Of Al Gilman
    Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 2:58 PM
    To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> 
    Subject: RE: Extensive forms & tables accessibility question
 
    Contrary to what I previously thought, I now have evidence that the ALT
  attribute on INPUT will not show up using IE 5.5 and Window-Eyes 4.0.
 
    So as of now it would appear that the technique that looks best is to
use
  TITLE on the INPUT, at very least where, as in Eugenia's case, there is no
  suitable LABEL content already showing somewhere on the page.  And
Thatch's
  advice is to ignore LABEL and just TITLE it anyway.
 
    Al