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FW: Extensive forms

From: Jim Thatcher <thatch@attglobal.net>
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:50:09 -0500
To: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>, "W3c-Wai-Gl@W3. Org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-id: <NDBBKJDAKKEJDCICIODLAEPGDBAA.thatch@attglobal.net>
   Hi Eugina,

  Sorry for being so long in responding, Frankly, I was hoping others would
respond since I am not active in the Guideline working group.

  Title on the INPUT elements is, like the LABEL element, a technique for a
guideline, not itself a guideline (or checkpoint). But it is a "strong"
technique since it is included in the checkpoint as a "for example." I would
think that if the major user agents are supporting title on input elements,
then it would be a technique suggested for the appropriate guideline.
  Jim
  jim@jimthatcher.com
  Accessibility Consulting
  http://jimthatcher.com
  512-306-0931

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Slaydon, Eugenia [mailto:ESlaydon@beacontec.com]
    Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 4:15 PM
    To: Slaydon, Eugenia; 'jim@jimthatcher.com'; 'w3c-wai-gl@w3.org';
'jimallan@tsbvi.ed'; Strothers, Tracy; 'asgilman@iamdigex.net';
'jongund@staff.uiuc.edu'; 'ij@w3.org'; 'oedipus@hicom.net'
    Cc: 'Don_Barrett@ed.gov'
    Subject: RE: Extensive forms


    Does anyone know if this recommendation of TITLE in INPUT will be part
of the WCAG 2.0 guidelines? Changes to the BOBBY software by CAST will be
done based on those quideslines. If not, how do I go about getting it in
place as a guideline?

    thanks,
    Eugenia
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Slaydon, Eugenia
      Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 11:20 AM
      To: 'jim@jimthatcher.com'; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org; jimallan@tsbvi.ed;
asgilman@iamdigex.net; jongund@staff.uiuc.edu; ij@w3.org; oedipus@hicom.net
      Cc: Don_Barrett@ed.gov
      Subject: RE: Extensive forms


      Thanks Jim. I've also tried a 5.5 version and couldn't duplicate the
"blinking" text. I'm going with TITLE in my input fields as well as SCOPE on
my td tags. HPR seems to do very well with the SCOPE even if the TITLE
ability isn't turned on. JAWS doesn't like my form page at all. It gets
stuck on the first line. I hope that the update/patch will correct this. I
haven't tried Window-eyes. Have you tested it against my form page?

      Eugenia
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jim Thatcher [mailto:thatch@attglobal.net]
        Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2001 4:26 PM
        To: Slaydon, Eugenia; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org; jimallan@tsbvi.ed;
asgilman@iamdigex.net; jongund@staff.uiuc.edu; ij@w3.org; oedipus@hicom.net
        Cc: Don_Barrett@ed.gov
        Subject: RE: Extensive forms


        I haven't experienced the "blinking" that Jim Allan talked about. I
wonder how serious it is. The sighted user moves the mouse to one of the
input areas and starts typing. What happens. Does the title keep popping up?

        I forgot that I had 5.5 on a different computer and tried it there.
Sometimes the title pops up and disappears. It does not continue blinking. I
think this is not a problem.

        The title for input areas is such a good solution to a tough
problem. I have a simplified version of Eugenia's form at
(http://jimthatcher.com/SimpleFormWithTitles.htm). It is also the form I
advocate at the end of the section on accessible forms in the ITTATC Web
Accessibility Course (http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse8.htm). I would like
to hear what others feel about the "blinking concern" in IE 5.5 title popup.

        After discussion with the JFW developer yesterday, it is definite
that support for titles will be in a soon to be released update/patch. As I
mentioned before, HPR will support the title attribute and Window-Eyes
already does support it.
        Jim
        jim@jimthatcher.com
        Accessibility Consulting
        http://jimthatcher.com
        512-306-0931

          -----Original Message-----
          From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org
[mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Slaydon, Eugenia
          Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:44 AM
          To: 'w3c-wai-gl@w3.org'; 'jimallan@tsbvi.ed';
'asgilman@iamdigex.net'; 'jongund@staff.uiuc.edu'; 'ij@w3.org';
'oedipus@hicom.net'; 'thatch@attglobal.net'
          Cc: 'Don_Barrett@ed.gov'
          Subject: RE: Extensive forms


          I want to apologize for the other message earlier today about
question between ALT and TITLE,
          somehow I managed to miss Al's posting on 4/25 about ALT not
displaying. Thank  you Al. I am
          concerned about Jim's find of the blinking test with a title
attribute on IE 5.5. That isn't occuring in
          IE 5.0 or NN 6.0. But I really don't want blinking text since
that's a whole other issue. Sounds like
          I'm stuck again. ALT doesn't work. TITLE is blinking in IE 5.5.
LABEL can't handle it. So if I fix
          the form with TITLE and SCOPE which seems to work great with
Homepage Reader, then I
          make it blink for IE 5.5 users. I realize that the TITLE won't
show up as a tool tip popup for NN
          4.x or some other browsers. That really doesn't worry me. If
someone can "see" the form then the
          popup mouseover isn't necessary (actually I would rather it not be
there at all - especially if it
          blinks!). ALT doesn't popup but the screen readers aren't reading
it. So suggestions? How is this
          handled in the future?

          Eugenia

            RE: Extensive forms & tables accessibility question

            From: Jim Allan (jimallan@tsbvi.edu)
            Date: Wed, Apr 25 2001

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              --------------------------------------------------------------
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            Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:06:11 -0500
            From: Jim Allan <jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
            To: Al Gilman <asgilman@iamdigex.net>, w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
            Message-id: <NBBBIBAJLBJPFGFFMBMEIEEPFAAA.jimallan@tsbvi.edu>
            Subject: RE: Extensive forms & tables accessibility question

            I checked out Eugenia's page and found a curious phenomena...
            In IE 5.5 when I put the mouse over an INPUT the tool tip does
pop up but
            FLASHES on and off. This was very distracting. (seems to flash
at 2 times
            the speed of the cursor blink, it flashes when the cursor is in
an INPUT or
            when no INPUT as a cursor in it).
            In Netscape 4.7 nothing is displayed
            In Opera 5.1 nothing is displayed.
            Jim Allan, Webmaster & Statewide Technical Support Specialist
            Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired
            1100 W. 45th St., Austin, Texas 78756
            voice 512.206.9315    fax: 512.206.9264  http://www.tsbvi.edu/
            "I see the Earth. It is so beautiful."--
            first words spoken by human in space.
            [Yuri Alekseevich Gagarin, from the Vostok 1, April 12, 1961.]

              -----Original Message-----
              From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org
[mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]On
            Behalf Of Al Gilman
              Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 2:58 PM
              To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
              Subject: RE: Extensive forms & tables accessibility question

              Contrary to what I previously thought, I now have evidence
that the ALT
            attribute on INPUT will not show up using IE 5.5 and Window-Eyes
4.0.

              So as of now it would appear that the technique that looks
best is to use
            TITLE on the INPUT, at very least where, as in Eugenia's case,
there is no
            suitable LABEL content already showing somewhere on the page.
And Thatch's
            advice is to ignore LABEL and just TITLE it anyway.

              Al
Received on Sunday, 20 May 2001 20:55:29 GMT

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