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RE: linearized tables

From: Jon Gunderson <jongund@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:07:44 -0600
Message-Id: <4.1.20000314085836.00a4b820@staff.uiuc.edu>
To: <gv@trace.wisc.edu>, "'Greg Lowney'" <greglo@microsoft.com>, "'Wendy A Chisholm'" <wendy@w3.org>, <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Cc: <kasday@acm.org>
If tables used to represent tabular information use markup properly, table
linearization algorithms can use the header information in the document to
provide the appropriate header information for each cell.  I think
encouraging authors to use proper markup for tables is better than trying
to get them to use a certain format so that when a simple linearization
algorithm is applied proper header information is generated by default.
The only case I think simple linearization should be encouraged is when
tables are used for layout.  In this case when the table markup is removed
the document should still make sense.


At 08:46 PM 3/13/00 -0600, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
>Hi Greg,
>I think the problem is that most programs linearize by listing the items in
>the order they are appear in the HTML.  So labels above items would not
>linearize in any very usable fashion.
>This is not a problem with tables that present tabular information.  In that
>case - the column headers across the top (If appropriately marked) would be
>the proper way to lay out a table.  (especially since there are usually
>labels down the side too.)  Not that the linearization rule does not apply
>to tables used for tabular information.
>It WOULD be a good idea for programs that linearize tables to give the user
>the option to flip it top-for-side to see if it were easier to understand or
>use in that manner.  I don't know which ones do that though.   Anyone know
>of table linearizers with a flip layout function?
>-- ------------------------------
>Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>Professor - Human Factors
>Dept of Ind. Engr. - U of Wis.
>Director - Trace R & D Center
>Gv@trace.wisc.edu, http://trace.wisc.edu/
>FAX 608/262-8848
>For a list of our listserves send "lists" to listproc@trace.wisc.edu
> -----Original Message-----
>From: 	w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]  On
>Behalf Of Greg Lowney
>Sent:	Monday, March 13, 2000 11:46 AM
>To:	Wendy A Chisholm; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>Cc:	kasday@acm.org
>Subject:	RE: linearized tables
>Hi Len, I don't necessarily disagree that it should be priority 1 to make
>tables understandable when linearized, but I don't like the example: "a form
>laid out in a table with field labels on the top row and corresponding
>fields on the bottom row."
>I believe that complies with the guideline that requires the table to make
>sense when linearized. It is normal table behavior for the first row to
>label the entire columns, so from the standpoint of the guideline regarding
>linearization it should be OK to create a table whose first row contained
>labels for the form controls in lower rows. The responsibility then is on
>the agent doing the linearization to clearly express the labeling
>relationship between the column header and the cell contents. That's equally
>true whether the cell contains a control or any other content. Therefore I
>don't see the example as violating this guideline.
>However, the example would violate a second guideline, which is to ensure
>that implicitly-associated labels are properly positioned. That is Pri 2
>because it's assumed that the author will comply with the third guideline,
>that of providing explicitly-associated labels.
>	Greg
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Wendy A Chisholm [mailto:wendy@w3.org]
>Sent: Friday, March 10, 2000 12:08 PM
>To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>Cc: kasday@acm.org
>Subject: Fwd: linearized tables
>>Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:39:32 -0500 (EST)
>>X-Sender: kasday@pop3.concentric.net
>>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2
>>Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 11:41:49 -0500
>>To: "wai-wcag-editor@w3.org" <wai-wcag-editor@w3.org>
>>From: "Leonard R. Kasday" <kasday@acm.org>
>>Cc: w3c-wai-er-ig@w3.org
>>Subject: linearized tables
>>Resent-From: w3c-wai-er-ig@w3.org
>>X-Mailing-List: <w3c-wai-er-ig@w3.org> archive/latest/1144
>>X-Loop: w3c-wai-er-ig@w3.org
>>Sender: w3c-wai-er-ig-request@w3.org
>>Resent-Sender: w3c-wai-er-ig-request@w3.org
>>WCAG says
>>5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when
>>linearized. Otherwise, if the table does not make sense, provide an
>>alternative equivalent (which may be a linearized version). [Priority 2]
>>This means that someone could use tables for layout in way that the page
>>makes no sense and is not usable by any of todays user agents... but still
>>get an A conformance rating, because this is only priority 2.
>>For example, if there's a form laid out in a table with field labels on
>>the top row and corresponding fields on the bottom row.
>>I think the checkpoint needs to be Priority 1.
>>Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
>>Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
>>Department of Electrical Engineering
>>Temple University
>>423 Ritter Annex, Philadelphia, PA 19122
>>(215) 204-2247 (voice)
>>(800) 750-7428 (TTY)
>wendy a chisholm
>world wide web consortium
>web accessibility initiative
>madison, wi usa
>tel: +1 608 663 6346

Jon Gunderson, Ph.D., ATP
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Chair, W3C WAI User Agent Working Group
Division of Rehabilitation - Education Services
College of Applied Life Studies
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
1207 S. Oak Street, Champaign, IL  61820

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248

E-mail: jongund@uiuc.edu

WWW: http://www.staff.uiuc.edu/~jongund
WWW: http://www.w3.org/wai/ua
Received on Tuesday, 14 March 2000 10:10:19 UTC

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