W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-gl@w3.org > January to March 2000

Re: noframes & Content Guidelines

From: Wendy A Chisholm <wendy@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:35:10 -0500
Message-Id: <>
To: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>, Paul Booth <paul@disinhe.ac.uk>
Cc: WAI GL <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
following up on some older e-mail.


As we were cleaning up the Techniques document recently we realized that 
the links between the Guidelines and Techniques were not complete.  In the 
11February draft of the general Techniques document (that acts as an index 
to the CSS and HTML modules) you get to the section discussing NOFRAMES 
only through checkpoint 6.5 although it should apply to checkpoint 1.1 as well.

If you look at the current working draft module of HTML techniques 
[http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS-20000211/] you will find that 
there is a whole section on Frames: 
[http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#frames].  In particular, the 
section 10.3 Writing for browsers that do not support FRAME.


At 01:05 PM 1/16/00 , Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
>Reposted to w3c-wai-gl@w3.org for the WCAG group to consider. Please followup
>there rather than IG.
>The main requirement for noframes is in checkpoint 6.5. This is Priority 2
>since in most user agents now it is opossible to access frames, at least to
>the extent of choosing between them. In other words, the working group felt
>that in general a meaningful title and name were more important for access to
>frames than a noframes element with useful content.
>One of the problems with a prioritised set of guidelines is that people are
>prepared to do what is essential, and then leave out the rest. In other
>words, it is accepted by some people as good enough if it is ont impossible
>to participate, but merely very difficult. I'm not sure that changing that
>could be done by the working group, and in the long riun i feel that there is
>value in prioritising to a certain extent, since meeting all the Priority 3
>checkpoints may not be as valuable as meeting 2 or three of the P1
>checkpoints. Of course I would hope that people endeavour to make triple-A
>Charles McCN
>On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Paul Booth wrote:
>   Hi there,
>   I've recently been running bobby over a few sites for people and explaining
>   the results to them.
>   I noticed that when run over a site with frames bobby comes up with the
>   guideline: "Ensure that pages are readable and usable without frames."
>   I cant find anywhere in the WAI Web Content Checklist that actually says
>   this however.
>   http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/full-checklist.html
>   "Title each frame to facilitate frame identification and navigation." is in
>   there as is, "Describe the purpose of frames and how frames relate to each
>   other if it is not obvious by frame titles alone. "
>   Although I did stagger on it somehow (through the mass of links and pages
>   you get from the checklist) in 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/ as
>   point 4.10.3
>   On further inspection, I guess its covered in part in checkpoint 1.1, but I
>   cant find anything that specifically mentions "noframes" in that part 
> of the
>   techniques document.  I know space is a premium, but shouldn't some of 
> these
>   points be given a bit more emphasis?
>   I could see a potential problem that someone who has used frames could just
>   look under the "And if you use frames (Priority 1)" heading in the 
> checklist
>   and think "well my frames all have titles so I'm ok!"
>   Perhaps I'm missing something - I find navigating the techniques document
>   from the checklist quite difficult.
>   Actually, this makes me think of another question:  Is it the case that
>   <noframes> isn't considered as important as it used to be? (hence why its
>   not specifically mentioned in the checklist?)  I appreciate that most
>   browsers cope with them by letting the user select the individual frames in
>   the frameset...  (In which case, is it bobby thats a bit out of sync?)
>   ....Or perhaps I've just been working too late (again).
>   - Paul
>   --
>   Paul Booth, Project Officer, DISinHE Office.
>   The UK's national centre for Disability and Information Systems in Higher
>   Education,
>   Department of Applied Computing, University of Dundee, Scotland
>   w:  http://www.disinhe.ac.uk/     t: 01382 345050      f: 01382 345509
>Charles McCathieNevile    mailto:charles@w3.org    phone: +61 (0) 409 134 136
>W3C Web Accessibility Initiative                      http://www.w3.org/WAI
>21 Mitchell Street, Footscray, VIC 3011,  Australia

wendy a chisholm
world wide web consortium
web accessibility initiative
madison, wi usa
tel: +1 608 663 6346
Received on Thursday, 17 February 2000 15:31:20 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 16 January 2018 15:33:31 UTC