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RE: Bobby output daunting on accessible page

From: Charles Oppermann <chuckop@coppersoftware.com>
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 13:55:28 -0700
To: <gv@trace.wisc.edu>, "Bruce Bailey" <bbailey@clark.net>, "GL - WAI Guidelines WG (E-mail)" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Cc: <uaccess-l@trace.wisc.edu>, <basr-l@trace.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <141B4B9182725E42808F281301F127097B39@COPPER1.coppersoftware.com>
That would be Coppermann with 2 n's GreGG! <smile>

Gregg is correct, I retired from Microsoft last year and am pursuing
some projects on my own.  I'm trying to stay involved with accessibility
issues as I can.

However, to set the record straight, I was never the head disability
"wok" or "wonk" at Microsoft.  I was part of a team of folks that works
on the accessibility of Microsoft products.  While I was there, Greg
Lowney was the "head wonk", or officially, Microsoft's Director of
Accessibility.  That accessibility team has grown even larger and is
continuing to do great things.  Details at http://microsoft.com/enable/.

Charles Oppermann
Copper Software
http://www.coppersoftware.com
chuckop@coppersoftware.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Vanderheiden [mailto:gv@trace.wisc.edu]
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 1:28 PM
To: 'Bruce Bailey'; 'GL - WAI Guidelines WG (E-mail)'; Charles Oppermann
Cc: uaccess-l@trace.wisc.edu; basr-l@trace.wisc.edu
Subject: RE: Bobby output daunting on accessible page


Charles was with Microsoft but is now at

> Copper Software
> http://www.coppersoftware.com
> chuckop@coppersoftware.com

I guess that would make him  a    Copperman

Gregg

-- ------------------------------
Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
Professor - Human Factors
Dept of Ind. Engr. - U of Wis.
Director - Trace R & D Center
Gv@trace.wisc.edu, http://trace.wisc.edu/
FAX 608/262-8848
For a list of our listserves send "lists" to listproc@trace.wisc.edu

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]  On
Behalf Of Bruce Bailey
Sent:	Monday, May 15, 2000 1:56 PM
To:	GL - WAI Guidelines WG (E-mail); chuckop@coppersoftware.com
Cc:	uaccess-l@trace.wisc.edu; basr-l@trace.wisc.edu
Subject:	RE: Bobby output daunting on accessible page

Yep.  The Bobby report is verbose to the point of being useless.  The
CAST
folks think that this is a feature.  What can be done?

Isn't Chuck Oppermann the name of the head disability wok at Microsoft?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org]On
> Behalf Of Gregg Vanderheiden
> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 4:26 PM
> To: GL - WAI Guidelines WG (E-mail)
> Subject: FW: Bobby output daunting on accessible page
>
>
> 	fyi
>
>
> -- ------------------------------
> Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
> Professor - Human Factors
> Dept of Ind. Engr. - U of Wis.
> Director - Trace R & D Center
> Gv@trace.wisc.edu, http://trace.wisc.edu/
> FAX 608/262-8848
> For a list of our listserves send "lists" to listproc@trace.wisc.edu
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 	owner-basr-l@trace.wisc.edu
> [mailto:owner-basr-l@trace.wisc.edu]  On
> Behalf Of Charles Oppermann
> Sent:	Sunday, May 14, 2000 3:07 PM
> To:	uaccess-l@trace.wisc.edu; basr-l@trace.wisc.edu
> Cc:	bobby@cast.org
> Subject:	Bobby output daunting on accessible page
>
> In response to a question about multiple selection controls in
> HTML, I wrote
> an short page that demonstrates two examples of the <SELECT> tag
> in HTML.  I
> used FrontPage 2000 to create the page and used it's built-in features
to
> create the <SELECT> elements, <LABEL> elements and ALT attributes.  I
then
> took time to tweak the HTML for better accessibility by adding TITLE
and
> ACCESSKEY attributes.
> The page is at
>
http://www.coppersoftware.com/Software/accessibility/select_example.html
> .
>
> I used LYNX 2.8.1 (Win32 version) to test the page and then ran it
through
> Bobby and was shocked to see the number of reported errors that were
> returned on the page.  Here is a condensed list:
> "P1 - Manual check" (apparently things that Bobby can't figure out on
it's
> own)
> 1.	Ensure that descriptions of dynamic content are updated
> with changes in
> content.
> 2.	Make sure that style sheets transform gracefully.
> 3.	If any of the images on this page convey important
> information beyond
> what is in each image's alternative text, add a LONGDESC attribute. (2
> instances)
> 4.	If this table contains data in rows and columns (i.e. a
> spreadsheet),
> have you identified headers for the table rows and columns? (3
instances)
> 5.	If any of the images on this page convey important
> information beyond
> what is in each image's alternative text, add descriptive (D) links.
(2
> instances)
>
> "P2 - Manual check"
> 1.	Mark up quotations with the Q and BLOCKQUOTE elements.
> 2.	Did you avoid using movement where possible? (2 instances)
> 3.	Make sure that headings are nested properly.
> 4.	Do not use pop-up windows or change active window unless the
user is
> aware this is happening. (1 instance)
> 5.	Do labels of all form controls immediately follow its
> control on the same
> line? (8 instances)
> 6.	Have you provided a linear text alternative for all tables
> that lay out
> content in parallel, word-wrapped columns? (6 instances)
> 7.	For long lists of selections, have you grouped items into a
> hierarchy? (2
> instances)
> 8.	Style sheets should be used to control layout and
> presentation wherever
> possible. (3 instances)
>
> "P3 - Manual check"
> 1.	Use the ABBR and ACRONYM elements to denote and expand
> abbreviations and
> acronyms.
> 2.	If this table is used to display data in rows and columns (i.e.
a
> spreadsheet), have you provided a summary of the table? (3 instances)
> 3.	Consider adding keyboard shortcuts to frequently used
> links. (1 instance)
> 4.	Specify a logical tab order among form controls, links and
objects.
> (2 instances)
> 5.	Identify the language of the text, and any changes in the
language.
>
> "Browser Compatibility Errors"
> 1.	Unknown attribute TABINDEX in element LABEL. for
> browser(s): HTML4.0 (2
> instances)
>
> While I got the "Bobby Approved" statement, what's disconcerting is
the
> sheer number of benign errors that are reported to the author that
really
> don't affect accessibility.  It's a huge negative reinforcement issue.
> Instead of rewarding authors for doing the right thing, they are
flooded
> with minor issues.
> Here's my perspective:  I've used a extremely popular tool to
> create a very
> small page. I've worked to ensure accessibility by digging into the
HTML.
> I've tested it.  I know accessibility.  Yet I'm told there are 19
> different
> categories covering 41 problems!
> It's not hard to see why people feel that accessibility is a burden.
> Even when I do the right thing, like use Style Sheets, Bobby warns me:
> "Priority 1, item 2: Make sure that style sheets transform
gracefully."
> Some of the reported problems are completely bogus, like:
> "Priority 2, item 1:  Mark up quotations with the Q and BLOCKQUOTE
> elements."
> There are no <BLOCKQUOTE> elements in my document.
> "Priority 2, item 3:  Make sure that headings are nested properly."
> Why can't Bobby figure this out?  In my document, a H1 is followed by
a H2
> which is followed by another H2 then a H3.  No nesting problem there.
At
> least err on the side of the author because even if I screwed it up,
it's
> not going to adversely affect the accessibility of the document.
> "Priority 2, item 5: Do labels of all form controls immediately follow
its
> control on the same line? (8 instances)"
> I really think this one is bogus.  The purpose of <LABEL> is to make a
> programmatic association between a control and it's label text.  I use
> <LABEL> in my code, yet I get this error.
> "Priority 2, item 7:  For long lists of selections, have you grouped
items
> into a hierarchy? (2 instances)"
> My selections have 3 items in each.  Bobby should have a cut off value
so
> this isn't displayed when less than X selections are used.
> "Priority 3, item 4:  Specify a logical tab order among form
> controls, links
> and objects. (2 instances)"
> I did exactly that with TABINDEX in the <LABEL> tag.  Bobby
> should be smart
> enough to know that the <SELECT> control was nested inside the
> <LABEL> block
> and since the <LABEL> had a TABINDEX attribute should not report
> the error.
> This one I can understand, since HTML 4 doesn't allow TABINDEX in
<LABEL>,
> thus the following error:
> "Unknown attribute TABINDEX in element LABEL. for browser(s): HTML4.0
(2
> instances)"
> Internet Explorer allows for TABINDEX to be placed in nearly all
> elements, a
> major boost for accessibility, but since it's not part of HTML
> 4.0, it's not
> considered.  So while I've great enhanced the accessibility of my page
by
> using TABINDEX, it actually generates a warning message.
> If the community wants to prove that accessibility is not a burden to
> authors and that the benefits outweigh the cost, I suggest
> restructuring the
> Bobby output to focus on the positives, highlight major errors and
hide
> minor issues from the summary, allowing authors to dig deeper if they
> choose.  But if we're going to harp on Header nesting and
> incorrect usage of
> <BLOCKQUOTE>, then the recently expressed concerns of the authoring
> community are valid.
> Charles Oppermann
> Copper Software
> http://www.coppersoftware.com
> chuckop@coppersoftware.com
Received on Monday, 15 May 2000 16:55:44 GMT

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