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Re: NOFRAMES (was:Re: Techniques Document)

From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:59:25 -0400
Message-ID: <35FF45AD.B9AF971C@w3.org>
To: Al Gilman <asgilman@access.digex.net>
CC: nir.dagan@econ.upf.es, w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Al Gilman wrote:
> Nir Dagan wrote:
> > 
> > The problem is that 
> > 1. Most current browsers will show the content of the NOFRAMES element
> >    even when the document is "framed"

If this claim includes the conditions "the browser supports frames and
configured to render frames," then the following statement 
from the HTML 4.0 spec means that those browsers 
do not comply with HTML 4.0:

     User agents that support frames must only display 
     the contents of a NOFRAMES declaration when configured 
     not to display frames.

If by "framed", Nir means the document uses the Frameset DTD,
then the following statement from the spec
drives home the point: "NOFRAMES can be used in the 
FRAMESET section of a frameset document. 

> > 2. It is not absolutely clear that the implementation as in 1. above 
> >    is in contradiction to the HTML4.0 spec.
> My reading is that it is a violation.  It takes too much of a
> stretch of English to turn "frames are being displayed" to "this
> HTML contains a FRAMESET."  "Frames are being displayed" refers
> to the state of the browse session, not the contents of the
> immediately enclosing HTML element.

I agree with Al, although Nir's point is well-taken -- that the
statement from the Recommendation:

NOFRAMES can be used in the FRAMESET section of a frameset document. 

is misleading since NOFRAMES (and IFRAME) can appear as well
in a document using the Transitional DTD.

We use the phrasing "user agents that do not support frames 
or are configured not to display frames" throughout the chapter
to refer to situations when NOFRAMES content should be rendered. 
We should have said more explicitly that this
was the intended meaning of "when frames are not being 
displayed" and we should have added for clarity "whatever DTD is in

 - Ian

Ian Jacobs (jacobs@w3.org) 
Tel/Fax: (212) 684-1814 
Received on Wednesday, 16 September 1998 02:44:15 UTC

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