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Re: Detailed comments on April 14 draft of the guidelines

From: nir dagan <dagan@upf.es>
Date: Sun Apr 26 02:58:41 1998
Message-Id: <199804260651.IAA09455@sahara.upf.es>
To: jasonw@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU
Cc: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
The April 14th guidelines: 
Style and Structure: "Use style sheets rather than converting text to
Jason White: 
Shouldn't this guideline be categorised as "required"? If text is
represented as an image, it can not be read by assistive technologies.

Nir Dagan:
I think that it is not always required. For example if 
one uses a fancy image as a heading it may me markuped as:
<H1><IMG src="killer.gif" alt="Creating killer websites"></H1>

The above is accessible, but it would be better to forget about the image
and use a stylesheet to create drop caps or whatever the author wants.
Appendix B issues:

Jason White wrote:
 Unordered lists: since CSS 2 allows audible cues to precede bulleted list
 items, the recommendation that ALT text such as "item" be included, should be
 marked as interim, and a note should be added mentioning audio style
 Ordered lists: Since user agents are supposed to generate the item numbering
 automatically,, the inclusion of this information in ALT text is surely
 redundant and potentially confusing. A null ALT attribute should be used
Nir Dagan: 
I don't quite understand Jason's recommendations.

There are three different combinations of markup/stylesheets.

1. (the best way, an excellent implementation
of the separate content from presentation HTML - CSS idea;
discouraged by error in the guidelines)

1.1 markup unordered lists with UL and LI; graphical bullets inserted 
with stylesheet.
1.2 Markup ordered lists with OL and LI; graphical numbers 
inserted with stylesheet.
In this option _no special thing_ should be done for accessibility.
The author _may_ use stylesheets for non visual media, but this has nothing
to do whether he uses graphical bullets in the stylesheet for visual

2. (the way everybody is doing now, this method altogether is
interim / obsolete / discouraged)
Create "fake" unordered / ordered list (e.g., by using a definition list
with DL and DD). Insert graphical bullets/numbers with IMG.
In this case alt text of unorederd lists bullets should be "Item:"
or something of that nature. In the fake ordered lists it may be 
 "item 1" , "Item 2" or just "1" "2" .

3. (the absolutely wrong way; encouraged by error in the guidelines;
modified by Jason White)
Use UL/OL and LI and insert graphical bullets/numbers with IMG.
This generats double bullets/numbers in visual media.
(The page should be rendered correctly without stylesheets)
Nobody is doing or should do that.
This method should not be mentioned in the guidelines.

There is no situation that should be in the guidelines 
in which the author inserts graphics of numbers with IMG and 
the appropriate alt is null.

Nir Dagan.
Received on Sunday, 26 April 1998 02:58:41 UTC

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