W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-er-ig@w3.org > February 2002

irc log from 30 jan 2002 chat

From: Wendy A Chisholm <wendy@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:26:14 -0500
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020201130255.04bda200@localhost>
To: w3c-wai-er-ig@w3.org
[18:29] <nick_kew> Check For Fixes Using EARL?
[18:30] <sbp> yeah
[18:30] <sbp> it probably makes more sense to check for breakages. Just reverse "passes" and "fails" in the test case
[18:31] <sbp> Hmm... no, I like to check for things being fixed too. If I've issued a bug report, I want to know when it's been dealt with
[18:31] <nick_kew> haven't had time to read it yet, but looks interesting
[18:32] <sbp> it's just a very simple example of what should be possible. I think that the current corpus of EARL examples is a bit weak
[18:32] <nick_kew> reading it now
[18:33] <nick_kew> Ah, I see.  That could be acompanied by document hashes to indicate what's changed
[18:33] <sbp> of course
[18:33] <nick_kew> (but I guess that's tool-specific)
[18:35] <sbp> yes. And it depends on what you're evaluating - in this case, it's quite clear that the tool is "A-Prompt". No need to hash the source code, although that might come in handy if there were a new version every hour or so, with no version numbers, and mirroring lag
[18:35] <nick_kew> Put that in a database, and add notification functions, and it becomes a full-blown tool
[18:35] <sbp> :-)
[18:35] <nick_kew> OK, Valet is evaluating webpages
[18:36] <nick_kew> - and the hashes serve as a structural metric
[18:37] <sbp> how are you hashing pages? Are you RegExping them, or using an HTML parser of some kind?
[18:37] <sbp> I decided to just RegExp them (examples in the EARL API), but I was told to use an HTML parser. I think using a RegExp is better, because it's less programming language dependent
[18:37] <nick_kew> grep on nsgmls output
[18:38] <sbp> oh. A RegExp of sorts, then
[18:39] <nick_kew> - that's particularly easy, because each line of output is an element/attribute/etc (the first char tells you which), so it's trivial to get the structure
[18:40] <sbp> yep. and nsgmls is quite popular, which brings a bit of repurposability to the code
<wendy> agenda+ nick's new page valet
<wendy> agenda+ sean's earl api
<wendy> agenda+ comments from EARL tech review
<wendy> agenda+ tools review from ATRC/Chris Ridpath
<wendy> zakim, agenda?
[19:03] <Zakim> I see 6 items on the agenda:
[19:03] <Zakim> 1. learn how to use Zakim
[19:03] <Zakim> 2. get xena in here
[19:03] <Zakim> 3. nick's new page valet
[19:03] <Zakim> 4. sean's earl api
[19:04] <Zakim> 5. comments from EARL tech review
[19:04] <Zakim> 6. tools review from ATRC/Chris Ridpath
<wendy> so, y'all ready to discuss this stuff?
[19:05] <nick_kew> yep.
[19:09] <sbp> thanks for hash.pl
<wendy> agenda- 1
[19:09] * Zakim notes agendum 1, learn how to use Zakim, dropped
[19:10] <nick_kew> Yeah .. I've explained it to several people; thought posting source easier 
[19:10] <JibberJim> yeah nick_kew - now if I can just find Apache, onsgmls and a box to run them all on :-)
[19:10] <nick_kew> They'll all run on windoze
[19:11] <JibberJim> I know...
[19:11] <JibberJim> I run them all, but not together.
<wendy> nick, was there more about page valet that you wanted to talk about?
<wendy> i just checked it out again. i'm glad to see that the wcag errors now have a text indication of priority level.
<wendy> although, WCAG1, WCAG2 might get confused with WCAG 1.0 and WCAG 2.0 instead of WCAG priorities.
[19:14] <nick_kew> Well, it's under active develoipment, and wants review/feedback
[19:14] <JibberJim> I confused that straight away Wendy!
[19:14] <nick_kew> :-)
<wendy> there's my feedback. jim or sean, did you have further feedback for nick?
[19:14] <JibberJim> I think he's had all mine.
[19:15] <sbp> I've already talked with Nick about it - it's very neat, and I only had some layout comments
[19:15] <JibberJim> I know I've got to work on the WYSIWYG version.
[19:15] <sbp> oh, and I mumbled something about XSLT to EARL
<wendy> why's the EARL gone from http://valet.webthing.com/xslt/
<wendy> ?
[19:15] <nick_kew> Mainly I'd like to get some of you folks to review it seriously 
[19:15] <nick_kew> wendy, follow the link to the stable version
* wendy follows
[19:16] <JibberJim> My main concerns are the number of matches you get on well authored pages.
[19:16] <JibberJim> (warnings about scripts, css etc.)
[19:16] <sbp> oh, why is the XSLT output not XHTML?
[19:17] <nick_kew> Indeed.  In principle I'd like to offer different levels of fussiness, but still thinking through how to do that
[19:17] <sbp> in fact, *how* is it not XHTML? Unless you're using <xsl:text>?
[19:17] <nick_kew> sbp, which view are you using?
[19:18] *** sbp has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
[19:18] <nick_kew> oops
<wendy> the EARL is interesting.
[19:18] *** sbp (~sean@m66-mp1-cvx4c.pop.ntl.com) has joined #er
[19:18] <JibberJim> and I'm the one with the modem lead taped to the computer.
[19:18] <nick_kew> That's only the old prototype
<wendy> why is it this way:
<wendy> _:mid6
<wendy>         rdf:subject _:mid6s ;
<wendy>         rdf:predicate earl:fails;
<wendy>         rdf:object _:mid6o .
<wendy> _:mid6s
<wendy>         earl:testCase   <http://www.cnn.com/> ;
<wendy>         earl:date       "Thu, 31 Jan 2002 00:16:30 GMT" ;
<wendy>         sp:line "72" ; sp:column "100" .
<wendy> _:mid6o
<wendy>         earl:expectedResult """
<wendy> required attribute "TYPE" not specified
<wendy> """;
<wendy>         earl:id sp:Validation .
<wendy> ---
<wendy> ?
[19:21] <nick_kew> wendy, I can't remember all that well - long time ago I put that up
<wendy> ok. sbp's question about xhtml?
<wendy> sbp - which view are you using?
[19:22] <sbp> ignore me
<wendy> ok.
[19:22] <nick_kew> But it's a prototype: I'm open to further suggestions.  Any updates now will be based on visval and include accessibility stuff
<wendy> so, visval will generate HTML, XML, or EARL?
<wendy> (in the future)?
[19:23] <nick_kew> If there's demand for EARL :-)
* wendy drums up a chorus, "we want EARL! we want EARL!"
[19:23] <JibberJim> Wendy seems to be alone here ...
[19:24] <nick_kew> Wendy, can you pull any strings to get it reviewed and/or recommended where people will notice it?
<wendy> no, really, there's a whole chorus.
[19:24] <sbp> sorry, I was listening to Leadbelly - would have chanted "keep EARL from the Gallows Pole"
<wendy> nick, if it generates EARL, I will promote it's use.
<wendy> I'm talking with three other developers who also want to generate EARL
[19:25] <nick_kew> OK, you're on.  EARL by the weekend.
<wendy> I will point them to that.
[19:25] * JibberJim notices Nick didn't say which weekend.
<wendy> At the tech plenary, I'll be pushing earl, if page valet generates it, I can use that as a demonstration.
[19:25] <nick_kew> EARL/XML or EARL/N3 ?
[19:25] <JibberJim> XML!
<wendy> jim - you had done some work with annotea and earl, right?
[19:25] <nick_kew> - or is that immaterial
<wendy> i'm heading to MIT to meet w/annotea folks re: earl annotations
[19:26] <JibberJim> I thought we agreed on this at a previous meeting
[19:26] <sbp> EARL/NT!
[19:26] <nick_kew> ?
<wendy> (refer to the scenario at http://www.w3.org/2001/08/AnnoteaOxygenDemo.html)
<wendy> yes, XML. 
[19:26] * sbp notes that EricP is going to follow up on www-annotation with a thread about EARL
[19:26] <JibberJim> I've looked at both Wendy, I never got them working together, and my Annotea client broke with a recent protocol change it's in my to do list.
<wendy> re: ericp - cool.
[19:27] * sbp wonders if CWM can be made to POST
<wendy> jim - any chance we could try some stuff out in the next couple of weeks? what can i do to help?
[19:27] <nick_kew> Future plans certainly include EARL, when it permits a user to feed it a spec against which to test
[19:28] <nick_kew> (eg to support XAG)
<wendy> nick - cool!
[19:28] <nick_kew> - discussed that with sbp a day or two ago
[19:28] <sbp> and for that, we need to work on the TPDL aspect of thing
[19:28] <JibberJim> Well I need to get my Annotation client back working, I'm not sure of the difficulty that was a hack which broke, and now I need to be more real RDF which is good, but more time consuming.  The EARL portions if I can get that working should be relatively easy.
[19:28] <sbp> s/thing/things/
[19:29] <JibberJim> As to things you can do to help Wendy, is come do my day job :-/
[19:29] <nick_kew> :-)
<wendy> :) 
<wendy> i haven't seen your annotation client, jim. did you have anything out and about for people to play with?
[19:30] <nick_kew> (wendy lost her nose?)
[19:30] <JibberJim> It was part of my web browser http://jibbering.com/snufkin/
<wendy> yes, i'm actually a frog.
* wendy checks out snufkin
[19:30] <nick_kew> hmm, I must have been hallucinating at Brighton
<wendy> jim - i'll check out snufkin tomorrow.
[19:32] <nick_kew> hi aaron.  Can you bring in xena?
<wendy> er, unless you need to work out some bugs w/annotea first?
<wendy> i mean the annotea client.
[19:32] <AaronSw> hi nick. let me take a look
<wendy> agenda?
[19:33] * Zakim sees 5 items on the agenda:
[19:33] * Zakim 1. get xena in here
[19:33] * Zakim 2. nick's new page valet
[19:33] * Zakim 3. sean's earl api
[19:33] * Zakim 4. comments from EARL tech review
[19:33] * Zakim 5. tools review from ATRC/Chris Ridpath
[19:33] <JibberJim> It won't have an annotea client tomorrow, I'll look to do the update when I get the chance.
<wendy> ok. jim.
<wendy> agenda- 2
[19:33] * Zakim notes agendum 2, nick's new page valet, dropped
<wendy> sean's earl api? anyone played with it?
<wendy> i've still got to install python 2.2 and play with it more.
[19:34] <AaronSw> he hasn't told me the location of the secret plans... i mean source
[19:34] <sbp> www-archive. Hardly secret!
[19:35] <AaronSw> see, he didn't tell me!
<wendy> nick - have you looked at the api? does it look like you could use that to generate earl for page valet?
[19:35] <sbp> you're subscribed!
[19:35] <AaronSw> I don't read email anymore.
<wendy> also, sbp you had made several suggested changes to earl 1.0
[19:35] <nick_kew> More likely elsewhere in Site Valet
<wendy> anyone have reactions to those?
[19:35] <nick_kew> But I haven't "done" the Python learning curve
[19:35] <sbp> but we haven't even made EARL 1.0 yet :-)
<wendy> :)
[19:37] <nick_kew> It's on my TBD list, but for Valet I'll want both C++ and Perl versions :-(
<wendy> sbp what are the "other less-used features of EARL"
<wendy> ?
[19:38] <nick_kew> sbp, keep nagging me every few days, and I'll get around to it
[19:38] <sbp> stuff like earl:purpose
[19:38] <sbp> Nick: will do
[19:38] <nick_kew> - eventually
[19:39] <sbp> you'll have to nag me to nag you
<wendy> what does: "loose note" and a "normative definition" set of
<wendy> properties
<wendy> mean?
[19:39] <AaronSw> Zakim, nag nick_kew every few days
[19:39] <Zakim> I don't understand 'nag nick_kew every few days', AaronSw.  Try /msg Zakim help
[19:39] <sbp> well, rdfs:comment seems to be used for two main things at the moment
[19:40] <sbp> * as a loose note "here's some crap about the property", * as a definition "this is what this proeprty is, and is for"
<wendy> ah, ok.
[19:40] <sbp> and I'm sick of splurshing them into one property object value under the guise of rdfs:comment
[19:40] <sbp> so I decided that two seperate properties would be a neat idea
[19:40] <sbp> then you can do a string:concat to form an rdfs:comment
[19:41] <AaronSw> agenda?
[19:41] * Zakim sees 4 items on the agenda:
[19:41] * Zakim 1. get xena in here
[19:41] * Zakim 2. sean's earl api
[19:41] * Zakim 3. comments from EARL tech review
<wendy> does definition get into the realm of the TPDL?
[19:41] * Zakim 4. tools review from ATRC/Chris Ridpath
[19:41] <AaronSw> agenda- 1
[19:41] * Zakim notes agendum 1, get xena in here, dropped
[19:41] <sbp> although if you declare them as sub properties of rdfs:comment, you might get some odd results
[19:41] <sbp> that's what the "D" stands for
<wendy> :)
<wendy> right, so that might be something that would be dropped as well?
<wendy> then comment could be just for the loose stuff?
[19:42] <sbp> erm...
[19:42] <sbp> TPDL defines test cases, not RDF properties
<wendy> or, is this a general issue you have with rdfs:comment - that it gets overused other places as well?
[19:42] <sbp> yep, it's a general issue
[19:42] <sbp> I've wanted something like this for a while, for almost every schema that I hack up
[19:42] <sbp> it might even be on the RDF issues list
<wendy> right, the D should be in TPDL not EARL - therefore drop it from earl is where it sounded like u were heading.
[19:43] <sbp> I don't want n:definition added to EARL - it's purely a documentation property
[19:43] <sbp> in fact, it belongs in RDFS
[19:43] <sbp> so RDF Core should deal with it
<wendy> what about earl:excludes - you say to remove it b/c it is shorthand for enumerating text point IDs and that it is easy to do w/CWM.
<wendy> However, it seems like a really useful shorthand. 
<wendy> although, you say "applying them is difficult"
<wendy> unless you know how many to exclude.
[19:45] <sbp> yes. I have a test case that I've been working on
[19:45] <sbp> I end up with...
[19:45] <nick_kew> erm, why is CWM relevant to EARL spec?
[19:45] <nick_kew> or rahter "easy to do with CWM"
<wendy> good q
[19:46] <sbp> I'll answer that in a sec., hang on
[19:46] <sbp> [[[
[19:46] <sbp>     <http://example.org/2001/05/bob#WCAG10P1>     a :TestCase;
[19:46] <sbp>          :id wcag:tech-alt-pages,
[19:46] <sbp>                 wcag:tech-auditory-descriptions,
[19:46] <sbp>                 wcag:tech-avoid-flicker,
[19:46] <sbp> [...]
[19:46] <sbp>                 wcag:tech-redundant-server-links,
[19:46] <sbp>                 wcag:tech-scripts,
[19:46] <sbp>                 wcag:tech-simple-and-straightforward,
[19:46] <sbp>                 wcag:tech-synchronize-equivalents,
[19:46] <sbp>                 wcag:tech-table-headers,
[19:46] <sbp>                 wcag:tech-table-structure,
[19:46] <sbp>                 wcag:tech-text-equivalent;
[19:46] <sbp>          :testCriteria  [
[19:46] <sbp> [...]
[19:46] <sbp>              :excludesId wcag:tech-table-headers,
[19:46] <sbp>                     wcag:tech-table-structure,
[19:46] <sbp>                     wcag:tech-text-equivalent ] .
[19:46] <sbp> ]]]
[19:47] <sbp> CWM is relevant because it is a good implementation of FOPL over RDF, and representative of the type of querying functionality that RDF gives you
<wendy> one of those "you get it free from rdf and rdf imps, therefore don't sweat it in your lang" type of answers?
[19:48] <sbp> one of my "I love CWM" type of answers
<wendy> :)
[19:48] <nick_kew> which is all very well in a world of good RDF imps
<wendy> :)
<wendy> ribbit
[19:48] <sbp> yes. EARL APIs should be able to work around it
[19:49] <sbp> but we'll see. I haven't got around to that in the Python EARL API yet
[19:49] <sbp> It needs a name. Ribbit is as good as anything
<wendy> b/c we have earl:testcase that shows what it does conform to, right?
[19:49] <nick_kew> visval is C++.  As I see it, using EARL there will imply rather more groundwork
<wendy> ribbit: lol
[19:50] <sbp> well, I managed to work out something pretty quickly in Python. There's not much code there
<wendy> it depends on what visval is going to do. if visval is going to.  What if it generates EARL, but another tool (written in cwm) does the reporting of the results?
[19:51] <sbp> as long as you can handle a bit of list programming, and have some semblance of an RDF API, it shouldn't be much of a problem. And perhaps there are C++ APIs out there that you can build on
[19:51] <sbp> .google C++ RDF API
[19:51] <xena> C++ RDF API: http://nestroy.wi-inf.uni-essen.de/rdf/sum_rdf_api
[19:51] <nick_kew> I'm struggling with the fact that OpenSP uses a homebrwe String type (to deal with big chars - i18n), and there's no regexp library for it:-(
[19:51] <sbp> no RegExp library? Eek
[19:51] <nick_kew> precisely
[19:52] <JibberJim> There must be an i18n regexp library
[19:53] <nick_kew> Can't find one.  I *think* that's why Java's so popular for XML - better libraries support
[19:53] <sbp> but Wendy's right: if you're only outputting for the moment...
[19:53] <nick_kew> (native 16-bit char)
[19:53] <nick_kew> Yeah, outputting easy
<wendy> nick or sbp - have tied hash to anything?
<wendy> s/have tied/have you tied
[19:55] <sbp> pardon?
<wendy> the hash hack exists, but is it tied in with anything? i.e. page valet?
[19:56] <nick_kew> Hash, yes, Valet's problem reporting+management database
[19:56] <sbp> Ribbit has it, but doesn't use it as yet
<wendy> :)
[19:57] <nick_kew> When you click on the Valet logo, and select "comment on this page"
<wendy> ok. i'll have to play w/that.
<wendy> agenda?
[19:57] * Zakim sees 3 items on the agenda:
[19:57] * Zakim 1. sean's earl api
[19:57] * Zakim 2. comments from EARL tech review
[19:58] * Zakim 3. tools review from ATRC/Chris Ridpath
<wendy> any further discussion about sbp's api?
<wendy> sbp - you've more stuff you're adding to it?
[19:58] <sbp> yeah
<wendy> when do you expect to release a new version?
[19:58] <sbp> indefinite
<wendy> ok.
<wendy> agenda- 1
[19:58] * Zakim notes agendum 1, sean's earl api, dropped
<wendy> comments on EARL tech review - jim responded re: cc/pp.
<wendy> i don't have a good answer. anyone else?
[19:59] <JibberJim> Pet topic of mine that.
<wendy> :)
[19:59] <sbp> what, that he thinks CC/PP sucks? does that need an answer? Seems like a statement rather than a question... :-)
<wendy> do you agree that cc/pp sucks?
[20:00] <sbp> no comment
[20:00] <nick_kew> Is it really anything more than a fancy name for HTTP content negotiation?
[20:01] <JibberJim> I don't think it sucks, I can see it being useful in the mobile world for distributing content, it's just not for accessibility ...
[20:01] <nick_kew> (or what should be HTTP, if you follow KISS)
[20:01] <sbp> agreed
<wendy> EARL is more than accessibility.
<wendy> it's stating if something conforms to a spec or not.
<wendy> e.g. page a is valid XHTML.
[20:02] <JibberJim> True, but it's not what CC/PP is useful for.
<wendy> therefore, if partnered with cc/pp, it could be deduced that page a could be used on the following devices...
[20:02] <sbp> CC/PP is just a bit that you may conceivably add onto the Test Subject to say where you got it from
<wendy> or something like that.
[20:02] <sbp> that's it
<wendy> onto the testSubject?
[20:03] <sbp> TestSubject, yep
[20:03] <sbp> and you can go from there. As you say, we don't stop people from using EARL however they like
<wendy> what about the other way around - someone has cc/pp preferences set, one of those is an EARL assertion about the types of content they want.
[20:04] <JibberJim> Absolutely if people want to use CC/PP in earl, good luck to them.
[20:04] <sbp> how would have an EARL assertion about the types of content they want? isn't that what CC/PP is meant to do?
[20:04] <sbp> s/would/would you/
[20:05] <sbp> er...
[20:05] <sbp> s/would/would they/
[20:05] <sbp> you can say that some access mechanism works or it doesn't work
[20:06] <sbp> and you could follow that, I suppose
[20:06] <nick_kew> Accept: text/html;graphics=no,sound=yes ?
[20:06] <sbp> :-)
[20:06] <nick_kew> (e.g. for mobile device)
[20:06] <sbp> opinions about HTTP extensions tend to Vary
[20:07] <sbp> wow, that was awful. Sorry
[20:07] <nick_kew> aaargh!
[20:07] * JibberJim quite liked it... I obviously need to get out more.
[20:07] <sbp> heh, heh
<wendy> it seems to me that if a client has some cc/pp and approaches a server for a match, 
[20:08] <nick_kew> Accept: spb;q=0.01
<wendy> that the server could check out its earl and say "here's something that matches exactly"
[20:08] <nick_kew> Wendy, http content negotiation does exactly that!
<wendy> we don't get any benefits? any logic? 
<wendy> content negotiation has this level of detail?
[20:09] <nick_kew> Convince me we do get any benefits
[20:09] <sbp> benefit: all your GETs get slowed down a lot, so the bandwith use of the Internet goes down
[20:09] <JibberJim> I don't think there's much point of this, at least 2 of us see nothing but negative in CC/PP and I think it's probably 3.
<wendy> agenda?
[20:10] * Zakim sees 2 items on the agenda:
[20:10] * Zakim 1. comments from EARL tech review
[20:10] * Zakim 2. tools review from ATRC/Chris Ridpath
<wendy> agenda- 1
[20:10] * Zakim notes agendum 1, comments from EARL tech review, dropped
<wendy> any comments on chris' tools review?
[20:10] <nick_kew> Content negotiation is based on several headers.  If not enough detail, it could be revised
[20:10] <sbp> when's it going to be finished?
<wendy> dunno.
[20:10] <JibberJim> Refresh my memory?
<wendy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2002Jan/0010.html
[20:11] <nick_kew> I've asked them to include Page Valet, but it sounds like they won't find the time
<wendy> that's gonna be a lot of earl to play with.
<wendy> to be presented in march 2002.
<wendy> probably not much to say.
[20:12] <sbp> the ATR output is a little borked
[20:12] * JibberJim Is still waiting for the page to appear...
<wendy> in what way? 
[20:12] <sbp> which is odd, because I'm sure that Chris fixed the problems etc.
<wendy> hmm. maybe you could follow up w/him?
[20:12] <sbp> in what way: tools have odd IDs, it uses earl:Pass instead of earl:passes...
[20:13] <sbp> yep, I should do. Give me an ACTION item
[20:13] <nick_kew> Can Chris Ridpath be subpoenad to appear here sometime?
<wendy> action sbp: help get ATR output unborked
[20:13] <sbp> I think the correct term is "deborked" :-)
<wendy> :)
<wendy> deborked it is.
<wendy> i could try to get him to a meeting next week.
[20:14] <sbp> how about: "Help Chris debork the ATR output"?
[20:14] <nick_kew> .google ATR
<wendy> sbp - whatever will help you. 
[20:14] <xena> ATR: http://www.atr.co.jp
[20:15] <sbp> .google ATR Chris Accessibility
[20:15] <xena> ATR Chris Accessibility: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER
[20:15] <sbp> argh
<wendy> ATR http://www.aprompt.ca/ATR/ATR.html
<wendy> plus http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-er-ig/2001Sep/0012.html
<wendy> ok. so i'll try to get chris here next week.
<wendy> i think that's it for today unless there other things y'all want to discuss.
<wendy> i'll send this log to the list for minutes.
<wendy> ribbit
[20:16] <sbp> :-)
[20:16] <nick_kew> What does ATR run on?
[20:16] <JibberJim> I'm going to be building a new Repair Tool in the next couple of weeks, would you rather I did that or looked at EARL and annotations?
<wendy> windoze
[20:16] <sbp> Methanol
<wendy> lol
[20:17] <nick_kew> sbp, I prefer ethanol
<wendy> jim - what's the repair tool gonna do?
[20:17] <sbp> Nitromethane is good stuff, too
[20:17] <nick_kew> wendy, I prefer anything but
<wendy> personally - i'm interested in EARL and annotations...
[20:17] <sbp> for fast-cars, that is... I wouldn't advise drinking it
[20:17] * sbp too
[20:17] <JibberJim> Evaluation Tool really.  A development on Snork that can be properly deployed.
<wendy> agenga -1
[20:18] <JibberJim> A tool that can cope with and report on accessibility/ cross browser nature of scripts.
<wendy> agenda- 1
[20:18] * Zakim notes agendum 1, tools review from ATRC/Chris Ridpath, dropped
<wendy> agenda?
[20:18] * Zakim sees nothing on the agenda
[20:18] <sbp> Jim: write-up?
<wendy> cool. then we're done.
[20:18] <nick_kew> Jim, that's breaking new ground.  Go for it!
[20:18] <JibberJim> Ah, but Wendy wants EARL and annotea...
<wendy> i'll let you all fight it out.
[20:19] <nick_kew> sbp+jim:  A UK accessible web campaign?
[20:20] <sbp> Nick: sounds interesting. I noticed something about that on #validator, but lost my logs
<wendy> see you all next week. jim - whatever you decide would be good - as long as it does something w/earl. :)
[20:20] <nick_kew> Ah, I buttonholed Jim; you weren't talking to me
<wendy> all tools should do something w/earl. :)
[20:21] <sbp> pardon? I am not someone to whom "button hole" is a verb
[20:21] <sbp> Wendy: heh
[20:22] <nick_kew> As I said, I wrote to the Beeb's "in touch".
[20:22] <sbp> yep, I recall
[20:23] <nick_kew> But then in my usual brainfart mode, I thought why stop there?  How about a more extensive campaign, a .org dedicated to it, etc
[20:24] <JJ> Any thoughts on Annotea or Snork (I need a proper name...)
[20:24] <nick_kew> ribbit
[20:25] <nick_kew> OK, if it still seems a good idea in the morning, I'll post something more coherent
[20:26] <JibberJim> Is the only interface to EARL Seans new API?
[20:26] <JibberJim> Nothing that outputs it in a friendly manner?
[20:27] <nick_kew> Didn't Jim write an Earl client?
[20:27] <sbp> yeah. That was a great demo
[20:27] <JibberJim> Yeah but it didn't understand real Earl...
[20:28] <nick_kew> (nick wishes he had the time to start doing interesting things with Konq like Jim does with IE)
[20:28] <JibberJim> I was thinking more generic than web, I mean if ATR gives us some EARL on all these tools, you'll need something to look at them.
[20:28] <JibberJim> Snufkin even has some real users!
[20:28] <JibberJim> (other than me I mean.)
[20:29] <nick_kew> Did I ever tell you about the first s/w I released free under the Webthing name?
[20:29] <JibberJim> and the BNP?
[20:29] <nick_kew> evidently yes :-(
[20:30] <sbp> EARL => HTML: all I can think of is XSLT, or API
[20:31] <JibberJim> Isn't RDF-XML quite annoying to parse though with XSLT.
[20:32] <nick_kew> Why's that?  (not tried it)
[20:33] <sbp> yeah, it is quite annoying
[20:33] <JibberJim> I'm not sure my xslt is pretty ropey (I prefer DOM.) I just heard that.
[20:33] <sbp> but you can get by, because many people will output some fairly regular output
[20:34] <nick_kew> I can see lots of namespaced elements might be irritating
[20:34] <sbp> well, XSLT is TC, so anything should be possible. But XSLT is so annoying to debug
[20:34] <JibberJim> We never discussed if we use earl: or reuse others...
[20:34] <nick_kew> I thought we did both?
[20:35] <JibberJim> Maybe I missed it, what was the decision?
[20:35] <JibberJim> was it earl:email or foaf?
[20:35] <nick_kew> pass.  sbp?
[20:36] <sbp> you're right: we didn't discuss it. I should have asked to add it to the agenda :-)
[20:36] <sbp> I just wondered if we should bung lots of terms into the EARL namespace, or use ones already defined
[20:36] <JibberJim> I think already defined so long as they are well defined.
[20:36] <sbp> it's a bit of a thin line, because for each, there are pros and cons. It's not a particularly interesting debate, though
[20:37] <sbp> yeah, that's my general opinion, too
[20:37] <JibberJim> Although it makes hack type parsers more complicated.
[20:38] <nick_kew> yeah.  Perhaps a limited set of namespaces should be included in earl spec?

-- 
wendy a chisholm
world wide web consortium 
web accessibility initiative
seattle, wa usa
/--
Received on Friday, 1 February 2002 13:25:56 GMT

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