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RE: Image alt in WAI process intro

From: Andrew Arch <Andrew.Arch@visionaustralia.org>
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 23:45:50 +1000
Message-ID: <A921AF4A5FC01245A8D846D004B61B36019F40FC@KOOXCH01.visionaustralia.org>
To: "Shadi Abou-Zahra" <shadi@w3.org>, <hbjarno@mail.dk>
Cc: <w3c-wai-eo@w3.org>, <shawn@w3.org>, <hbj@visinfo.dk>

I'll have to reiterate my position of a few days ago [1] - null alt text
is the most appropriate. The images do not convey any of the information
suggested for including as alt text! Shadi's suggestion of including the
images via CSS solves the debate completely - and makes them
presentation, not information!

Andrew
[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2006JulSep/0109.html
______________________
Dr Andrew Arch
Manager Online Accessibility Consulting
Vision Australia - Accessible Information Solutions
Ph. +61 (0)3 9864 9282; Mob: 0438 755 565
http://www.visionaustralia.org.au/ais/


> -----Original Message-----
> From: w3c-wai-eo-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-eo-request@w3.org] On
> Behalf Of Shadi Abou-Zahra
> Sent: Thursday, 21 September 2006 6:53 PM
> To: hbjarno@mail.dk
> Cc: w3c-wai-eo@w3.org; shawn@w3.org; hbj@visinfo.dk
> Subject: Re: Image alt in WAI process intro
>
>
> Hi,
>
> hbjarno@mail.dk wrote:
> > Hi Sylvie and EO
> > I think there is a problem with these alt texts as Sylvie write:
> >> This does not correspond to the look and meaning of each
> >> image but this brings a similar information for non visual
> >> users as images for visual users.
> > because I don't think it is a similar information as the images
provides
> to a visual user. I'm not sure that all visual users get this
information
> from the illustrations, and therefor we are adding information in the
alt
> text that is only implicit in the text or is a exerpt of the text.
>
> I appreciate that some blind users may want to know that there is an
image
> but still don't think that these images add any value to the meaning
of
> the text. In fact, I think these should be mere CSS background images
to
> avoid noise or repetition for many users.
>
>
> Regards,
>   Shadi
>
>
> > Sylvie Duchateau <sylvie.duchateau@snv.jussieu.fr> wrote:
> >> hello Shawn,
> >> I think that Henny's idea of providing for each alt a
> >> summary of the status of the document is good and helpful.
> >> In her e-mail she proposed :
> >> 1. "Working drafts - there can be many working drafts"
> >> 2. "Last call working draft - the public are invited to
> >> comment"
> >> 3. "Candidate recommendation - the recommendations are
> >> publicly tested"
> >> 4. "Proposed recommendation - the document gathers
> >> endorsements"
> >> 5. W3C recommendation - the document becomes a web standard"
> >>
> >> This does not correspond to the look and meaning of each
> >> image but this brings a similar information for non visual
> >> users as images for visual users.
> >>
> >> An alt content like : >1. "draft documents" for Working
> >> Draft would be redundant to the text following the image. A
> >> short summary in the alt would be an additional help for the
> >> user who cannot see the images.
> >>
> >> Best
> >> Sylvie
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> >>
> >> On 20/09/2006 at 11:41 Shawn Henry wrote:
> >>
> >>> EOWG folks,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the comments and discussions on the EOWG mailing
> >> list[1]! Based
> >>> on all the feedback[2], I plan to use very minimal alt
> >> text:
> >>> 1. "draft documents" for Working Draft
> >>> 2. "complete technical report" for Last Call Working Draft
> >>> 3.  "using computer with technical report" for Candidate
> >> Recommendation
> >>> (other ideas include: "using computer", "developing Web
> >> project with
> >>> technical report", "developing with technical report")
> >>> 4. "endorsing technical report" for Proposed Recommendation
> >>> 5. "finalized technical report" for W3C Recommendation
> >> (other ideas
> >>> include: "final technical report", "approved technical
> >> report", "technical
> >>> report with gold seal")
> >>>
> >>> Feedback welcome.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> ~ Shawn
> >>>
> >>> fyi, the previous version with the long alt is available
> >> from the
> >>> "reference" section of the changelog at:
> >>>   http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/changelogs/cl-process.html#refs
> >>>
> >>> [1] to the "Image alt in WAI process intro" email thread
> >> starting at:
> >>>   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2006JulSep/
> >> 0106.html
> >>> [2] particularly:
> >>>
> >>> Sylvie Duchateau wrote:
> >>> Empty alt tags... does not give equivalent information as
> >> the information
> >>> provided by the images.
> >>> There should be a short text equivalent of each image that
> >> should not
> >>> explain what the images look like, but this text equivalent
> >> should explain
> >>> which information they try to provide.
> >>>
> >>> Swan, Henny wrote:
> >>> These images... do add a little value visually
> >>> as they give a little context and almost act as a summary
> >> for the
> >>> associated text. If this can be captured in the ALT text
> >> then it may be
> >>> worth having descriptive ALT text as they are strictly
> >> speaking
> >>> informative images.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> Shadi Abou-Zahra     Web Accessibility Specialist for Europe |
> Chair & Staff Contact for the Evaluation and Repair Tools WG |
> World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)           http://www.w3.org/ |
> Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI),   http://www.w3.org/WAI/ |
> WAI-TIES Project,                http://www.w3.org/WAI/TIES/ |
> Evaluation and Repair Tools WG,    http://www.w3.org/WAI/ER/ |
> 2004, Route des Lucioles - 06560,  Sophia-Antipolis - France |
> Voice: +33(0)4 92 38 50 64          Fax: +33(0)4 92 38 78 22 |




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