- From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:12:28 -0400 (EDT)
- To: WAI AU Guidelines <w3c-wai-au@w3.org>
For the Word Demo (first item) JR == Jeff Rayner
For the Front Page demo JR == (our own beloved and indispensable) Jan
Richards
LN == Liddy Nevile
JT == Jutta Treviranus
WL == William Loughborough == <Geeze>
Phill Jenkins ==<Phill>
LNG == Lou Nell Gerard
HS == heather Swayne
GB == Giorgio Brajnik
CMN == Charles McCathieNevile == <chaals>
KHS == Katie Haritos-Shea
WC == Wendy Chisholm
Note that there were powerpoint slides with each presentation. These are
going to be provided to us - thanks to the presenters.
And again, thank you very much to Heather and Microsoft for reorganisation
and hospitality above and beyond the call of duty.
====
#wai :chaals @jt
<chaals> Jeff Rayner, product manager.
<chaals> talk about Word 2002, access, HTML
<chaals> on phone LN, JT
<chaals> here HS GB WC KHS CMN
<chaals> JR Word 2002 is in officeXP
<chaals> We are trying to make things go better - give people more control
over how features wrk.
<chaals> e.g. spellcheck started out as a process you went through at a
particular time, then wee went to background indicatin, and then we went to
auto-correction, which can have problems if it gets then word wrong.
<chaals> So we are trying to make it stop being to aggressive for ordinary
users.
*** wendy (~wendy@tux.w3.org) joined #wai
<chaals> focus areas: collaboration (asynchronous co-editing)
<chaals> KHS panels are not dialogs?
<chaals> JR No - it can sit there, can be closed, but doesn't need to be
worked on.
<chaals> smart tags - e.g. enable people when pasting something to work out
in what form to paste it
<chaals> (e.g. as table, as the text content of the table, etc)
<chaals> so you can change what has happeneed from a default to some other
option
<chaals> compare and merge - like CVS for word documents, with user interface
for email etc..
<chaals> also helps that tehre is improved change tracking.
chaals wonders how people are going on the phone.
<chaals> looked at section 508 compliance, improved accessibility, using
ItextStore (new MSAA API)
<chaals> KHS can you get heading levels out of iTextStore?
<chaals> JR That assumes that documents use styles.
<chaals> ..which isn't often the case
<chaals> HS doc mapping has been there a long time
<chaals> JR and outline. these are used by people, but not consistently in
the majority of cases
<chaals> CMN Usage patterns: International, or US based?
<chaals> JR not uniformaly tested internationally....
<chaals> CMN does it dump out the alt text into a plain text version
<chaals> JR I don't think so.
<chaals> .. it does it in word formats (doc, RTF) and HTML
<wendy> CMN Having the option to do roundtrippable is good.
<wendy> ..sometimes stripping out isn't a good thing.
<wendy> (this in response to seeing the HTML that was produced. It
contains a lot of info. )
<wendy> JR You can save it as reduced w/out the info.
<wendy> .. makes smaller.
<wendy> .. html is just a file format in word.
<wendy> .. it is not an HTML editor, it is a word processor.
<wendy> .. whether come in in html, or rtf, or xyz, once in word, word's
data structs will be populated.
<wendy> .. e.g. spell-checking will kick in.
<wendy> .. when save it as html, you'll have spelling states saved (when
save as full).
<wendy> LN When you filter it would that be a good time to say "make
formatting into styles?"
<chaals> LN when it produces filtered info isn't that a good time to convert
formatting to style?
<wendy> JR Interesting idea, but dangers of converting direct formatting
into styles.
<wendy> .. things may coincidentally look the same, what if need to change
style.
<wendy> LN Right, that's why do it as an option.
<wendy> JR In latest version, have a task pane, you can easily do things
like this yourself.
<wendy> .. if the goal is to uniformly use styles, rather than direct
formatting,
<wendy> .. there are many ways to do it w/out walking through the doc
repeatedly.
<wendy> JT Don't you do that type of extrapolation when converting struct
to markup?
<wendy> JR Not really. It's looking at what styles are applied or direct
formatting and converting it
<wendy> ..into HTML representation of it.
<wendy> .. e.g., if bold something, we use the "b" element.
<wendy> .. if there is something we can't directly translate, e.g. there
are things we might not be able
<wendy> .. to translate to HTML. We'll warn the user, let them know it
might be lost.
<chaals> JT so word styles are not converted to equivalent CSS?
<wendy> JR We use HTML constructs.
<wendy> CMN If I write a new style in word, do I convert that to a css
style in the doc?
<wendy> JR Type text, select, pick Heading 1. Then view as web page, view
source. you'll see we have an H1
<wendy> .. with an h1 style definition in the style element of the header.
<wendy> .. therefore, if i define my own h1 style, it will put my
preferences here in the style definitions.
<wendy> JT What if you start out in word and start a word style.
<wendy> JR Yes, that's exactly what's happened.
<wendy> .. we've created a defn of that.
<wendy> JT I can then edit the styles w/in HTML?
<wendy> JR Yes.
<wendy> .. if you open the doc in notepad or something, then say where we
define style foo as font: helvetica,
<wendy> .. you change to courier. will be picked up by word.
<wendy> CMN If you create a style, is it a subclass h1 or paragraph
w/style attached?
<wendy> HS I think it redefines h1.
<wendy> JR Muliple cases. If you redefine the style so that it is
consistently applied, but if you
<wendy> .. make a heading 1, but want this to be green, we'll likely apply
h1 but..
<wendy> .. if normal and you a pply bold, the style associated w/it would
be normal, but have b elemnt.
<wendy> CMN when i use styles i say, "i want htis to be h1, but then i
have special h1's." e.g. h1+marching ants.
<wendy> JR Are you asking, do we have one style based on the other or
create new style?
<wendy> CMN Right.
<wendy> JR make heading 1+underline.
*** Geeze (~love26@209.216.168.212) joined #wai
<Geeze> anybody home?
<jt> We have IIRC for the meeting
<wendy> hi geeze.
<wendy> we're on the bridge as well.
<Geeze> me too
<wendy> oh. welcome. i kind of sounded like someone joined.
chaals takes an action item to put these online
<wendy> JR The inheritence is handled inherently in word, but not html.
<wendy> .. back to the presentation...
<wendy> CMN w/in word, the standard source for images is the clip art
library.
<wendy> JR The library lets you manage images of diff types.
<wendy> .. depending on the type they may or may not...in tiff you could
stuff text.
<wendy> CMN Most image formats have a place to put text. We have a tool
for jpegs.
<wendy> .. let's you put in all kinds of data in the tool. desc, author,
etc.
<wendy> .. using rdf to put it in. can use any form you like.
<wendy> CMN The min. conformance to the checkpoint is, I'll have to trash
the doc since I can't handle it. some info will be lost.
<wendy> .. word does on save out.
<wendy> JR Don't do here, could consider for future versions.
<wendy> .. it's rare. would need a sophisticated html doc for this to kick
in.
<chaals> Wombat 1.5 - missed that it is possible to do this by warning the
user.
<wendy> WL Is it tidy friendly?
<wendy> JR It is valid HTML.
<wendy> WL Tidy will make it XHTML.
<wendy> JR Prompting: (3.1) difficult. could build a check, but there is
lots of tricky design issues.
<wendy> .. exactly when do you prompt? only when saving to html?
<wendy> .. do you want to force the user when saving to backup (in case of
crash) to prompt?
<wendy> CMN Same type of challenge as spellchecking.
<wendy> .. depends on workflow pattern.
<wendy> JR And user settings.
<wendy> .. we never really force you to change them.
<wendy> .. could be a setting, just like for mail, where the spell checker
gets fired up when you hit send.
<wendy> .. save versus send. send - i'm done.
<wendy> .. save, i don't want ot lose it.
<wendy> CMN To take up, "this is only useful in HTML" what about if you
are blind and use word?
<wendy> .. if get a doc w/an image in it, what happens?
<wendy> HS The info is there, some screen readers get the info some don't.
It depends on how the
<wendy> .. SR is accessing the document.
<wendy> .. our accessibility relies on the accessibility aids.
<wendy> CMN Many of these things, could be done as macros.
<wendy> JR Yes, save as event, checks alt-text.
<wendy> (4.1)
<wendy> CMN It's just the collection.
<wendy> HS And timing.
<wendy> JR That's the hardest part.
<wendy> HS Could we show how to edit HTML directly?
<wendy> .. the vb environment.
<chaals> demo of being able to roundtrip and edit at each end in a word HTML
source editor
<wendy> CMN Put longdesc="foo", will it roundtrip?
<wendy> JR tries it.
<wendy> .. it's still there.
<wendy> .. but the quotes disappear. seems to be a bug.
<wendy> LN May I try a roundtrip?
<wendy> .. if you made a word doc. spit out small version. run it through
html tidy. make it xhtml.
<wendy> .. what would it do?
<wendy> Action KHS: run a test.
<wendy> cmn sends JR an xhtml file.
<wendy> opens it as plain text, since doesn't recognize the namespace.
<wendy> .. probably suggests that if save as xhtml and open in word, can
save it out again, but only plain text.
<wendy> ** front page folks arrive.
<wendy> ** 15 minutes break
*** wendy has signed off (EOF From client)
<chaals> JR leaves
<chaals> LNG - Lou Nell Gerard, Program manager
<chaals> NJR - normal Jan Richards - joins
<chaals> FP targets - hobbyist, small business, large orgs and we bdeveloper.
*** KatieHS (~kshea@dialup-63.214.8.221.Dial1.Seattle1.Level3.net) joined
#wai
chaals waves to katie
*** wendy (~wendy@tux.w3.org) joined #wai
<chaals> site management tools done by a group.
<wendy> CMN what is lead time?
<wendy> HS depends on spec.
<wendy> .. product, etc.
<wendy> CMN Likely be 2 years? How find a place in the product cycle?
<wendy> xx e.g. by the time wcag completed, we were frozen on this
release. roughly 2 years.
<wendy> HS Under best of conditions. If hit at right time, you have about
18 months (that's short).
<wendy> .. if hit inappropriate, e.g. just after planning, then they have
a year of following the plan, then it could be much longer.
<wendy> CMN Some stuff easier to get into the plan than other things.
<chaals> so generally 2 to three years is "normal"
<chaals> LNG testing on accessibility of UI
<wendy> s/xx/LNG
<chaals> HS different testing strategies used.
<wendy> LNG working with developer, creating a site for brain injury
organization.
<wendy> .. he said not enough support for cognitive issues. people need
images. too much emphasis on text in the guidelines.
<wendy> KHS diff between 2000 and 2002.
<wendy> LNG New usage and reporting tools. Content management.
<wendy> HS Share features w/word and rest office suite.
<wendy> xx HTML preservation improved.
<wendy> LNG Editing features - find & replace improvements.
<wendy> .. work w/sharepoint. server extensions groups, team
collaboration.
<wendy> CMN Looked at CMN against authoring tool guidelines.
<wendy> HS I've made it clear that we don't do public conformance
statements about our products.
<wendy> .. we can talk about what we believe the opportunities for the
product are.
<wendy> .. moving in structure. accessibility checker. we can discuss
generally, or go through specific checkpoints.
<wendy> CMN list of things that spring to mind as opportunities.
<wendy> HS Those two.
<wendy> CMN list of successes? e.g. clean roundtripping, ..
<wendy> HS Help system. keyboard shortcut documentation, doc in general.
<wendy> .. helping users understand that accessibility is a concern.
<wendy> CMN managing libraries of object, having descriptions not so much
functional alternatives.
<wendy> LNG Talking about using the same image throughout site?
<wendy> CMN CLip art libraries.
<wendy> LNG We don't own clip art.
<wendy> JR Do the clip art people also own video and such?
<wendy> HS Yes.
<wendy> CMN If you have a photo library, collect descriptions of phtos.
Much harder to collect alt-text given
<wendy> .. function of photo will change.
<wendy> JR Also talking about captions, and such.
<wendy> .. heard a bit about checking and correcting. can you give more
details?
<wendy> LNG Hiawatha is a 3rd party vendor that uses our object model.
they use a tool that
<wendy> .. checks and repairs.
<wendy> .. we were involved to some extent, where they ran into problems.
<wendy> JR How well is that integrated?
<wendy> LNG I hear good feedback.
<wendy> HS It's an add-in.
<wendy> .. added to toolbar.
<wendy> JR It's a check accessibility menu.
<wendy> xx Have you used a lot of the tools?
<wendy> CMN Yes. (lists...)
<wendy> xx how do you feel about their coverage? how well do they enforce
WCAG?
<wendy> CMN The best are helpful. YOu still ahve to use your brain.
<wendy> .. it's an interactive model.
<wendy> xx question about wombat.
<wendy> .. ensure that preauthored content conforms to WCAG.
<wendy> .. WCAG contains many non-machine checkable info.
<wendy> .. e.g. color info.
<wendy> .. there are a lot of p1 that are not machine-checkable.
<wendy> .. how could you conformant w/this. how can we ensure that all
content that we generate
<wendy> is wcag.
<wendy> CMN preauthored, just check it before you put it in.
<wendy> xx these things that are not machine checkable...
<wendy> CMN clear and simple language s the classic "not checkable."
<wendy> .. as a technique, you can do grammar checking.
<wendy> .. known complex things that can be translate.d
<wendy> .. words not in primary school dictionary. thesaurus.
<wendy> JR Issue of whether that is appropriate to the audience.
<wendy> CMN machine support techniques.
<wendy> LNG question about grammar checking tool, current word checker
help?
<wendy> CMN Yes. adequate? stop using it.
<wendy> .. australian english grammar and american english grammar are
different.
<wendy> xx you offer priorities. you try to quantify how accessible
something is, when it is grey.
<wendy> cmn we are putting markers along a continuum.
<wendy> LNG Have you thought about publishing list of links of sites that
are good.
<wendy> .. these are accessible but not usable.
<wendy> WC Yes, supporting documentation in the works. Particularly libary
of test files and issues.
<wendy> CMN One thing to push is particpants and sponsors of WAI saying
"this is a priority."
<wendy> .. some work but never enough.
<wendy> xx know of authoring tools that have been verified to be A, AA, or
AAA?
<wendy> CMN no. surprised if one exists w/out single miss.
<wendy> .. many are reasonably close to AA
<wendy> .. if put together a series of prodcuts, it works.
<jt> Charles keeps cutting out can you ask him to get closer the
themike
<wendy> moving the phone.
<wendy> does that help?
<jt> yes tYes thats mcuh better
<wendy> xx ensure foreground/background colors contrast.
<wendy> .. if i want to enforce (checkpoint 2.2)
<wendy> s/xx/ds
<wendy> ds i am a dev in frontpage team.
<wendy> .. i see 2 ways to do it, hard way: do image analysis.
<wendy> .. use ocr, etc. or i could just prompt the user.
<wendy> .. would the latter be adequate?
<wendy> cmn yes. meets the min requirement. ask user is min.
<wendy> JR in fact, don't even need to say it for each image.
<wendy> .. in general, ... show colors changed in some way.
<wendy> WC Can show user what it looks like - tool like that.
<wendy> DS user still have to go through, would that be AA?
<wendy> JR Prompting is A for asking, AA for showing, AAA for completely
automatic.
<wendy> CMN Gets into integration.
<wendy> JR Can have AAA if you ask the question in a way that seems that
integrates w/the rest of the way the tools works.
<wendy> .. don't worry about sper complicated to get higher rating.
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<wendy> CMN what underlies it is an assumption that A, AA, AAA matches
good, better, best.
<wendy> .. in some way it does.
<wendy> .. no requirement to get better.
<Phill> Phill joins via chat
<Phill> Are you getting ready for lunch (12 noon) ?
<wendy> GB 2 goals: 1 is reaching a certain level of compliance.
<chaals> Hi Phill.
<wendy> .. other is reaching support for the user.
<wendy> .. they are not the same.
<chaals> Yes, we are. We are talking to the frontpage team
<wendy> HS Tradeoff between making the goals.
<Phill> I'll connect back at 1pm your time - ok?
<chaals> OK. We are on the phone as well.
<wendy> JT will the ave use of the tool make accessible content?
<wendy> .. that's what we set for p1.
<Phill> I will connect on both phone & chat at 1pm-ish
<wendy> HS Yesterday we started conversation about EARL and integration.
<chaals> EARL == Evaluation and Report Language
<chaals> WC we have been working on heuristics for testing things.
<chaals> .. how do we know when to prompt the user? When is something a
quote?
<chaals> .. there is a lot that is checked by humans - how can we keep the
results of that?
<chaals> .. can we pass information on checks between tools?
<chaals> .. EARL keeps track of checks that have been done.
<chaals> DS So this is a reporting format.
<wendy> CMN talked w/hiawatha about how they track things.
<chaals> WC we can use it to do evaluations of tools, so we can record how
well tools do on aspects of checking.
<wendy> CMN authoring tool evaluations 2 years ago.
<wendy> .. simple reporting language.
<chaals> http://www.w3.org/2001/03/earl
<chaals> HS this is the first explanation that has made sense to me - the bit
about not having to ask the same question again and again.
<chaals> WC We are trying to make the materials about EARL easier to
unsderstand.
<wendy> CMN Use cases: passing info between tools, me looking for
accessible content,
<wendy> .. tools to do partial evaluations,
<wendy> **discussion of EARL
*** KatieHS has signed off (Ping timeout)
--
Charles McCathieNevile http://www.w3.org/People/Charles phone: +61 409 134 136
W3C Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/WAI fax: +1 617 258 5999
Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia
(or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France)
Received on Thursday, 13 September 2001 15:12:28 UTC