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Re: Last Call AU: presentation order

From: Leonard R. Kasday <kasday@acm.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:26:04 -0400
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991026101639.00e5bf40@pop3.concentric.net>
To: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
Cc: w3c-wai-au@w3.org
Sorry if I seem so unrelenting on this, but I want to make sure that I
explained what I was after.  

>There is a specific techniques suggestion in checkpoint 4.1,

Yes, although it just refers to checking the order, not to specifying or
correcting it

> and the
>reference to WCAG in checkpoint 1.3. 

which is very general

> In addition a technique has been added
> to checkpoint 1.2 in the next draft.

I'm looking forward to that!  Like I say, it will need to specify an order
for parts of the page that is independent of where they physically appear
in the graphical view.  This is priority 1 for software that allows
arbitrary x-y positioning and hence doesn't define serial order at all,
like Microsoft Publisher, and Priority 2 or maybe 3 for software in which a
serial order is defined, like Microsoft Word.

Len


>
>Charles McCN
>
>On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Leonard R. Kasday wrote:
>
>  Yes, the AU guidelines implicitly refer to the need for the HTML to be in
>  proper order.  But I don't see any reference to a feature that's often
>  needed to do so, viz
>  
>       a way for the author to <strong> explicitly </strong> specify the 
>       order in which those elements appear in the HTML.  
>  
>  This is needed if all you have is a wysiwyg view, in which a sighted order
>  has slid things around on the screen.  In other words, the x,y coordinates
>  have been specified via positioning but no serial is defined.  The program
>  can apply heuristics to find the serial order, but they don't always work.
>  (That's what they tried to do at Adobe.  I think they put in some hard
>  effort with good people but there are still PDF documents where the order
>  comes out screwey.)
>  
>  I feel rather strong about this because the problem comes up with Microsoft
>  Publisher.  I need to put up some pages that were created by someone who
>  slid text around, and the text order in the HTML is really mixed up.  I
>  wrote Microsoft and they weren't able to help.  If they want to keep the
>  slide around interface, they need to have explicit positioning.
>  
>  Word is different than Publisher because you can't just arbitrarily
>  position something somewhere: you have to insert it in a flow.
>  
>  The difference is that in publisher you define an object and then give it's
>  x,y position.  In word you define a serial order.
>  
>  It's true that there are some simple presentations like having just two
>  columns where the order stays defined.  But even if a simple heuristic can
>  deduce the reading order from the visual presentation, that may not be the
>  optimal reading order for someone who is blind.  For example, you may want
>  to move a bunch of menu links from the beginning to the end.
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  At 03:35 PM 10/23/99 -0400, Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
>  >We address this problem through reference to the Web Content Accessibility
>  >Guidelines, most obviously in guideline 1.
>  >
>  >An example of an authoring tool that handles this in an advanced way is
>  >Microsoft Word, which allows the creation of various headers and
footers, and
>  >columnar text, but can reproduce a linear flow order.
>  >
>  >Cheers
>  >
>  >Charles McCathieNevile
>  >
>  >On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Leonard R. Kasday wrote:
>  >
>  >  <fontfamily><param>Times New Roman</param><bigger>When style sheets are
>  >  used, the order in which items appear visually can be different than the
>  >  order in which they appear in the HTML source, which is the order in
>  >  which a blind person would hear them (at least with current browsers). 
>  >  WYSIWYG editors tend to make the orders different whenever the user
>  >  starts moving things around,  and  hand-crafted HTML can be just as 
>  >  bad.
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  In fact, in a 2-dimensional graphical layout, "the order" is not always
>  >  obvious. defined, or best suited to the needs of blind surfers.
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  Therefore, when sections of the page have an order controlled by a style
>  >  sheet, the tool needs a way to independently control the order in which
>  >  those sections appear in the HTML.  The result would be displayed in a
>  >  separate window, with means to showing what corresponds to what, just
>  >  like in the email with subject: " Last call AU: simultaneous
>  >  presentations" 
>  >  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-au/1999OctDec/0016.html
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  I think this would best fit under guideline 1.  
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  I'd give it a priority 1.  It addresses the biggest hassle I'm currently
>  >  facing as I try to transfer newsletters from a major desktop publishing
>  >  program  to a web site.
>  >  
>  >  </bigger></fontfamily>
>  >  
>  >  Len
>  >  
>  >  -------
>  >  
>  >  Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
>  >  
>  >  Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
>  >  
>  >  Department of Electrical Engineering
>  >  
>  >  Temple University
>  >  
>  >  
>  >  Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122
>  >  
>  >  kasday@acm.org        
>  >  
>  >  (215) 204-2247 (voice)
>  >  
>  >  (800) 750-7428 (TTY)
>  >  
>  >
>  >--Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
>  >phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://www.w3.org/People/Charles
>  >W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
>  >MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  -------
>  Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
>  Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
>  Department of Electrical Engineering
>  Temple University
>  
>  Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122
>  kasday@acm.org        
>  (215) 204-2247 (voice)
>  (800) 750-7428 (TTY)
>  
>
>--Charles McCathieNevile            mailto:charles@w3.org
>phone: +1 617 258 0992   http://www.w3.org/People/Charles
>W3C Web Accessibility Initiative    http://www.w3.org/WAI
>MIT/LCS  -  545 Technology sq., Cambridge MA, 02139,  USA
>
>
>
-------
Leonard R. Kasday, Ph.D.
Institute on Disabilities/UAP, and
Department of Electrical Engineering
Temple University

Ritter Hall Annex, Room 423, Philadelphia, PA 19122
kasday@acm.org        
(215) 204-2247 (voice)
(800) 750-7428 (TTY)
Received on Tuesday, 26 October 1999 11:23:03 UTC

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