Session Start: Fri May 16 14:51:56 2003 Session Ident: #rdfcore [14:51] * Now talking in #rdfcore Session Close: Fri May 16 14:52:42 2003 Session Start: Fri May 16 14:54:53 2003 Session Ident: #rdfcore [14:54] * Now talking in #rdfcore [14:55] * bwm has joined #rdfcore [14:55] * reagleMIT has joined #rdfcore [14:57] Hi folks [14:57] hi [14:58] I'm at hp labs, we're just dialling [15:00] "Please review RDF Last Call documents" - message to i18nwg, Jan 28 2003 [15:00] Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0183.html [15:01] i'll dig [15:01] i'm on the call to [15:02] * Zakim has joined #rdfcore [15:02] * gk is now known as gk-scribe [15:02] ok, he's here [15:03] zakim help [15:03] Zakim, who is on the phone? [15:03] sorry, bwm, I don't know what conference this is [15:03] On IRC I see Zakim, reagleMIT, bwm, gk-scribe, DaveB, logger [15:03] yes [15:03] (i'm bad at it's syntax) [15:03] Zakim, this is RDFCore [15:03] ok, bwm [15:03] Zakim, who is on the phone? [15:03] On the phone I see Joseph, PatH, GrahamKlyne, ??P11, Jeremy, Manola [15:04] i like python because i don't have to worry about commas and curlies :) [15:04] * jjc has joined #rdfcore [15:04] Zakim, ??p11 is hplb [15:04] +hplb; got it [15:04] Zakim, hplb is bwm, daveB [15:04] I don't understand 'hplb is bwm, daveB', bwm [15:04] Zakim, hplb has bwm, daveB [15:04] +bwm, daveB; got it [15:04] Item 1: Jan being unavailable, GK scribes [15:05] Zakim, who is on the phone? [15:05] On the phone I see Joseph, PatH, GrahamKlyne, hplb, Jeremy, Manola [15:05] hplb has bwm, daveB [15:05] Item 2: role call [15:05] As above, none others [15:05] Regrets: patrick, jos, [15:06] Guest: Joseph Reagle -- will update us on RDF in XHTML [15:06] Item 3: Update on embedding RDF in XML [15:06] Follow up from plenary earlier this year [15:07] Lots of solutions, but none stick [15:07] Joseph proposes a "task force" to get people together to forge some consensus across the communities. [15:08] Requirements... RDF in XHTML, and others yet to be fleshed out [15:08] +Mike_Dean [15:08] Goal is to recommend a solution to SWCG... [15:09] * mdean has joined #rdfcore [15:09] Couple of months, hope for sense of whether the problem is solvable [15:09] Mailign list is being set up [15:09] -GrahamKlyne [15:10] * gk-scribe dialing again [15:10] +GrahamKlyne [15:10] * gk-scribe did I miss anything? [15:10] joe mentions trackback in html comments [15:11] Big issue... what is relationship between RDF and a document?; murky issues of social meaning, etc. [15:12] Thinks requirmeent may be solved by complete XML composition solution. But this is not the requirement to be solved [15:12] Jeremy: qnames? [15:13] DaveB: scope of problem(s) first port of call; then maybe consider solutions? [15:13] DO we need to put *any* RDF in XHTML? [15:14] q+ to ask about scenarios [15:14] * Zakim sees gk-scribe on the speaker queue [15:15] ack gk [15:15] gk-scribe, you wanted to ask about scenarios [15:15] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [15:16] bwm: any sense of how long? Joseph: no, other than assessing the problem space in a month or so [15:16] By then, at least should have opened some channels between metadata and hypertext communities [15:17] esw wiki on this stuff http://esw.w3.org/topic/EmbeddingRDFinHTML [15:18] daveb: few of RDFcore were at tech plenary, but several at WWW conf. Is it worth trying for another meeting? [15:18] Joseph: I'll not be there, but ... [15:18] * mdean has quit IRC (Ping timeout) [15:19] -Joseph [15:19] Thanks top Joseph for coming along [15:19] Item 4: review agenda [15:19] No comments [15:19] item 5: next telecon 309 may [15:20] the draft charter for the TF: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-semweb-cg/2003May/0040.html [15:20] item 6: comments on minutes [15:20] Nine. Approved. [15:20] The proto-requirements: http://www.w3.org/2003/03/rdf-in-xml.html [15:20] Item 7: Confirm Status of Completed Actions [15:20] * reagleMIT has left #rdfcore ("You run, never stop, got to win, got to run till you drop") [15:20] All OK. [15:20] Fortward to item 8: [15:20] pfps-08 [15:21] (Issue list URI: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/20030123-issues/) [15:21] Proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0138.html [15:22] bwm's revised doc was 0181.html [15:22] Hmmm... that's meeting minutes, not sure where proposal is [15:22] brian's: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0181.html [15:23] PFPS says: [15:23] I believe that there are errors in the treatment of typed literals in [15:23] the RDF model theory. For example, let I be an interpretation where [15:23] rdf:XMLLiteral and ex:bar both denote the domain element. However, [15:23] the typed literal "xx"^^ex:bar does not necessarily denote the same [15:23] thing as "xx"^^rdf:XMLLiteral because the rule for rdf:XMLLiteral uses [15:23] the URI reference directly, and not its denotation. [15:24] above was in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/2003JanMar/0087.html [15:24] and is issue pfps-08 [15:24] Semantics doc editors draft, 3.4 addresses this? [15:25] Propose that 3.4 in the editors draft addresses pfps-08 and we accept the comment [15:25] Pat proposes: Jeremy has reviewed and agrees that Semantics doc editors draft, 3.4 addresses this, amnd we accept comment. [15:26] scribing [15:26] agsinst none [15:26] abstain none [15:26] DECIDED [15:26] we approve - i.e. accept pfps-08 [15:26] Actions arising: [15:26] ACTION PatH respond to Peter [15:27] Item 9: [15:28] Pat has sent comment to list [15:28] Resolved [15:29] pfps-01 accepted [15:29] Action path respond to peter [15:29] Item 10: pfps-03 (lbase appendix) [15:30] Pat proposes to not accept the comment [15:30] Several people have found this style easier to understand [15:31] (There was an ancillary comment that the LBase document has moved -- GK) [15:31] Private comment received in favour of putting this in a separate document. [15:33] Even for DAML, axiomatic semantics are most commonly cited. [15:33] Pat proposes, DaveB seconds [15:33] None against, none abstain [15:33] RESOLVED [15:33] pfps-03 not accepted [15:34] (Cite motivation is utilty of DAML axiomnatic semantcis) [15:34] Actions arising: [15:34] ACTION PatH respond to Peter [15:34] Item 11: pfps-05, RDF closure rules [15:35] Proposed to accept comment, addressed by new paragraph. [15:36] Proposal: in agenda (item 11) [15:36] Proposed: path, second GK [15:37] None against, none opposed [15:37] s/opposed/abstained/ [15:38] Note that pfps-09 dropped off menu [15:39] Item 12: timbl-03 [15:39] jimH response from webont http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0194.html [15:39] on whether to change rdf:List triple [15:40] Current rdfcore preference is to change this, but webont preference is no change. [15:41] zakim, who is on the phone? [15:41] On the phone I see PatH, GrahamKlyne, hplb, Jeremy, Manola, Mike_Dean [15:41] hplb has bwm, daveB [15:42] q+ to argue in favour of the change as requested by timbl-03 [15:42] * Zakim sees gk-scribe on the speaker queue [15:42] ack gk [15:42] gk-scribe, you wanted to argue in favour of the change as requested by timbl-03 [15:42] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [15:43] q+ to talk aboput reification [15:43] * Zakim sees jjc on the speaker queue [15:44] ack jjc [15:44] jjc, you wanted to talk aboput reification [15:44] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [15:44] GK argues in favour of change... minimize triples generated by parsers, not having some applications impose requirements on RDFcore for all [15:46] JJC: rdf:type triple in reification is also redundant; (one other reason... scribe missed) [15:46] q+ to respond to jeremy [15:46] * Zakim sees gk-scribe on the speaker queue [15:46] jjc's other reason: do want webont want [15:47] ack gk [15:47] gk-scribe, you wanted to respond to jeremy [15:47] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [15:48] zakim, who is on the phone? [15:48] On the phone I see PatH, GrahamKlyne, hplb, Jeremy, Manola, Mike_Dean [15:48] hplb has bwm, daveB [15:48] GK has one other argument: lists are widely used, so cost is high [15:50] straw poll is split evenly [15:50] Discussion... [15:51] q+ [15:51] * Zakim sees jjc on the speaker queue [15:52] ack jjc [15:52] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [15:52] q+ to note arguments hinge on work for standards committees vs work for implementers and implementations [15:52] * Zakim sees gk-scribe on the speaker queue [15:55] ack gk [15:55] gk-scribe, you wanted to note arguments hinge on work for standards committees vs work for implementers and implementations [15:55] * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue [15:55] q+ to respond to gk [15:55] * Zakim sees jjc on the speaker queue [15:56] zakim, who is on the phone [15:56] I don't understand 'who is on the phone', bwm [15:56] zakim, who is on the phone? [15:56] On the phone I see PatH, GrahamKlyne, hplb, Jeremy, Manola, Mike_Dean [15:56] hplb has bwm, daveB [15:57] New straw poll favours removal [15:58] proposed pat, second gk, none against, abstain jjc, daveb, miked [15:58] RESOLVED accept timbl-03 [15:58] ACTION daveb update syntax spec [15:58] ACTION daveb respond to commentor [15:59] ACTION daveb tell webont [15:59] -PatH [15:59] This closes the last syntax LC issue (WOHOO!) [16:00] -Manola [16:00] Other documents affected? schema? [16:00] ACTION bwm review schema for changes [16:00] Concepts not affected [16:00] Primer needs some updates [16:01] Test cases need updates [16:01] ACTION daveb update test cases [16:01] ACTION frank update primer [16:02] maybe action to PatH on semantics update> [16:02] Item 15: xmlsch-05, character sequences ("string"?) [16:03] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0193.html [16:03] Jeremy's proposal, copied in agenda, to not accept the comment. [16:03] [[ [16:03] Rationale: [16:03] It feels like a fairly extensive editorial change. Also in the semantic web [16:03] activity documents xsd:string is always refered to in its qualified form, and [16:03] so the possible confusion is diminsihed. [16:03] ]] [16:04] * mdean has joined #rdfcore [16:04] Proposed: jeremy, seconded daveb. None against, none abstain [16:04] RESOLVED: do not accept xmlsch-05 [16:04] ACTION jjc respond to commenter [16:04] from textg in 0193.html [16:04] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0193.html [16:04] Item 14: XMLsch-06, natural language data [16:05] Ediorial changes have been suggested on the list. [16:05] ^^ to JJC's proposal, copied in agenda [16:05] [[ [16:05] A plain literal is a string combined with an optional language [16:05] identifier. As recommended in the RDF formal semantics [16:05] [RDF-SEMANTICS], these plain literals are self-denoting. [16:05] Plain literals with a language identifier [16:05] should be used only for plain text in a natural language. [16:05] ]] [16:07] In meeting: s/should be used only/may be used/ [16:07] may be used for plain text in a natural language. [16:07] Plain literals with a language identifier may be used for plain text in a natural language. [16:08] No further comments. [16:08] Proposed: (as above) jjc, second daveb, none against, none abstain [16:09] ------ [16:09] AOB [16:10] Meeting closed [16:10] ------ [16:13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2003May/0191.html [16:17] -Mike_Dean [16:25] -Jeremy [16:25] -hplb [16:25] * DaveB has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) [16:25] xxx [16:25] -GrahamKlyne [16:25] SW_RDFCore()10:00AM has ended Session Close: Fri May 16 16:26:05 2003