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Minutes RDFCore WG Telecon 2001-11-30

From: Jeremy Carroll <jjc@hplb.hpl.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:02:20 +0000
Message-ID: <3C080FFC.2004C194@hplb.hpl.hp.com>
To: w3c-rdfcore-wg@w3.org



Minutes - RDF Core WG - Telecon 30 November 2001
================================================

Agenda:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Nov/0641.html

Summary:
   DECISION 2001-11-30#1  Frank Manola will co-edit the Primer.
   DECISION 2001-11-30#2  Jan Grant will co-edit the Test Cases WD.
   DECISION 2001-11-30#3  Reserve use of names in the rdf namespace as
in agenda.
   DECISION 2001-11-30#4  'Delete' para 196 from Syntax WD.


   ACTION 2001-11-30#1 Dan Connolly: Review
rdfs-transitive-subSubProperty test cases.
   ACTION 2001-11-30#2 Pat Hayes: Review rdfs-transitive-subSubProperty
test cases.
   ACTION 2001-11-30#3 Jan Grant: Get access to test case areas of W3C
site.
   ACTION 2001-11-30#4 Dave Beckett: Create test cases covering reserved
use of rdf names in this proposal.
   ACTION 2001-11-30#5 Dave Beckett: Create test case showing that the
2nd URL in Para 196 is permitted.
   ACTION 2001-11-30#6 Mike Dean: Sumamrise Joint Committee position,
confirm with them, circulate to us.
   ACTION 2001-11-30#7 Pat Hayes: Write up P for inclusion in Sergey's
document.
   ACTION 2001-11-30#8 Dan Connolly: Write up Perl datatyping proposal
as e-mail to group.
   ACTION 2001-11-30#9 Jeremy Carroll: Write up XML Schema structures
datatyping proposal as e-mail to group.



Note: We had frequent technical problems with the irc channel.
      The attached log is incomplete, and has non-irc notes 
      appended. I believe that I did not get all the irc messages
      even before I lost connectivity. 

1: Allocate scribe
    Jeremy Carroll


2: Roll Call

Present
-------
  Brian McBride
  Eric Miller
  Dave Beckett
  Dan Connolly
  Ron Daniel
  Jos De Roo
  Jan Grant
  Graham Klyne
  Frank Manola
  Stephen Petschulat
  Patrick Stickler
  Aaron Swartz
  Mike Dean
  Pat Hayes
  Sergey Melnik (for item 11 only)

Absent
------
  Frank Boumphrey
  Bill dehOra
  Rael Dornfest
  Yoshiyuki Kitahara
  Michael Kopchenov
  KWON, Hyung-Jin
  Ora Lassila
  Satoshi Nakamura
  Pierre Richard
  R.V. Guha


Regrets
-------
  Dan Brickley
  Martyn Horner


3: Review Agenda
    No AOB.

4: Next telecon - 10am Boston time, 07 Dec 2001


5: Review Minutes of 2001-11-16 
  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Nov/0561.html
    No comments, minutes approved.



6: Status of Primer
   Eric requested a coeditor for the Primer.
   DECISION 2001-11-30#1  Frank Manola will co-edit the Primer.


7: Status of Model Theory
   2001-11-16#5 PatH  Post updated copy of model theory, with datatype
discussion elided, for group review by Wednesday 21-Nov-2001
   Action continued.

8: Status of Syntax WD
   No progress.
   Dave Beckett hopes to have something by end of next week.

9: Issue: rdfs-transitive-subSubProperty
Propose Approve test case
-------------------------
Not considered since no-one has reviewed test cases.
   ACTION 2001-11-30#1 Dan Connolly: Review
rdfs-transitive-subSubProperty test cases.
   ACTION 2001-11-30#2 Pat Hayes: Review rdfs-transitive-subSubProperty
test cases.
   

10: Manifest Proposal
Review Jans proposal.
--------------------

Jos wants a distinction between rdfs and rdf entailment.
Brian notes that this text belongs in the Test Cases WD.
  DECISION 2001-11-30#2 Jan Grant will co-edit the Test Cases WD.
  ACTION 2001-11-30#3 Jan Grant: Get access to test case areas of W3C
site.
 

12: Issue #rdfms-rdf-names-use
[[[
Propose the WG

  o Resolves that the use of rdf:RDF, rdf:ID, rdf:about,
    rdf:resource, rdf:bagID, rdf:parseType, rdf:aboutEach and rdf:li
except
    as reserved names as specified in the grammar is an error.
  o resolves that test case 
http://www.w3.org/2000/10/rdf-tests/rdfcore/rdf-containers-syntax-vs-schema/test005.rdf
    be obsoleted
  o resolves that  a copy of that test case be created as an error test
case
  o actions DaveB to create test cases for the above cases
  o actions DaveB to identify any similar cases to those above and
create
    test cases to cover them also
]]]
---------


Jeremy Carroll asked for clarification that this still allows rdf:_NNN
as a typed node.
Dave Beckett indicated that it did.

Dan Connolly seconded proposal.

No objections to the proposal, no abstentions.

   ACTION 2001-11-30#4 Dave Beckett: Create test cases covering reserved
use of rdf names in this proposal.
   DECISION 2001-11-30#3 Reserve use of names in the rdf namespace as in
agenda.

Para 196
--------
Eric and Ron who were both in the first WG, clarified that the second
URL in para 196 is not a typo; but was intended to reserve namespace for
future use.

Jeremy Carroll seconded Dave Beckett's e-mail proposal that para 196 be
dropped.

Discussion.

   DECISION 2001-11-30#4 'Delete' para 196 from Syntax WD.
[Scribe pedantic note: while the discussion was in terms of deleting
this paragraph, since it is in a different document, it is more a
question of not including it].
   ACTION 2001-11-30#5 Dave Beckett: Create test case showing that the
2nd URL in Para 196 is permitted.

11: Datatypes
Action 2001-11-16#9 FrankM
--------------------------
  Continued.
Action 2001-11-16#10 Jeremy WebOnt working group.
---------------------------
  Done - but no meaningful response - too early in WOW-G process.

Action 2001-11-16#11 MikeD DAML+OIL joint committee.
-------------------------- 
  Both Pat Hayes and Mike Dean reported back from the Joint Committee.
  Apparant summary: P preferred, then U, then S, which could be lived
with.

  ACTION 2001-11-30#6 Mike Dean: Sumamrise Joint Committee position,
confirm with them, circulate to us.


Review Sergey's document and status of ongoing discussions.
----------------------------------------------------------

Many positive comments on Sergey's document.
General discussion: particularly about Perl datatyping, and its
relationship to Jena and Squish datatyping.
Brian observes that there is increasing support for something other than
S.

  ACTION 2001-11-30#7 Pat Hayes: Write up P for inclusion in Sergey's
document.
  ACTION 2001-11-30#8 Dan Connolly: Write up Perl datatyping proposal as
e-mail to group.
  ACTION 2001-11-30#9 Jeremy Carroll: Write up XML Schema structures
datatyping proposal as e-mail to group.


The meeting ended as the bridge died.

13: Issue rdfms-aboutEach
NOT REACHED

14: Issue: rdfms-assertion
NOT REACHED

15: Semantics of Reification - what progress
NOT REACHED



My own log of the IRC, followed by rough notes:
==============================================

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<em> +pat
<xena> 2001/11/30 15:00:04.85716 Universal
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<em> +ron
<em> +steve
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[jjcscribe] 1: jjc is scribe
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<em> agenda ->
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Nov/0641.html
[jjcscribe] Agenda 2: Roll Call
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[jjcscribe] reghrets DanB
[jjcscribe] Brian pres
[jjcscribe] Eric Present
 * AaronSw` whistles a well known melody.  aaronsw
<AaronSw`> Hmm.
[jjcscribe] +DaveB
[jjcscribe] -FrankB
[jjcscribe] +Jeremy
[jjcscribe] Reg DanC
[jjcscribe] +RonD
[jjcscribe] -BillD
[jjcscribe] +Jos
[jjcscribe] -Rael
[jjcscribe] +Jan
[jjcscribe] reg martin
[jjcscribe] -yoshi
[jjcscribe] +graham
[jjcscribe] -MichaelK
[jjcscribe] -Kwon
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[jjcscribe] -Ora
[jjcscribe] +FrankM
[jjcscribe] -satoshi
[jjcscribe] +steve
[jjcscribe] -PiereR
[jjcscribe] +PatrickS
[jjcscribe] +Aaron
[jjcscribe] -MikeD
[jjcscribe] -Guha
[jjcscribe] +PatH
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[jjcscribe] -Sergey
[jjcscribe] +MikeD
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[jjcscribe] +danC
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[jjcscribe] 3: Review Agenda
[jjcscribe] No AOB
[jjcscribe] 4: Minutes
[jjcscribe] No comments
[jjcscribe] Minutes approved
[jjcscribe] 6: Status of Primer
 * DanC dials in...
<AaronSw> +Pat -Sergey
<DanC> ouch; no sergey?
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<AaronSw> Hmm, I'm seeing a lot of lagg.
[jjcscribe] Eric would like help - coownership.
[jjcscribe] Eric would like co or primary editor
[jjcscribe] Eric rejects casual offers of help
[jjcscribe] Eric wants serious help!
[jjcscribe] FrankM volunteers has co-editor
[jjcscribe] Decision: FrankM is co-editing Primer
 * gk test
<DanC> test... this logged?
<AaronSw> yes
[jjcscribe] 7: Model Theory
<AaronSw> Model Theory Status
<AaronSw> Pat: sorry, i'm late... i think i'll the thing i promised by
next ??
[jjcscribe] Pat is late, ... action continued.
[jjcscribe] 8: Syntax
<AaronSw> Syntax Status
[jjcscribe] DaveB: No Progress
[jjcscribe] DaveB: TestCases is published.
<AaronSw> Dave: i now have 2 WDs and i need some help
<AaronSw> bwm: let's stick to syntax
<AaronSw> dajobe: gonna spend some time next week on this
[jjcscribe] DaveB hopes to have something by end of next week
<AaronSw> ... hope to have something to next week for the WG.
[jjcscribe] Will have stuff that emits triples
<AaronSw> dajobe: have to finish writing out the rules, sketch out more
sections (reification, aboutEach, etc.)
<AaronSw> ... write some introductory material
<DanC> pointer to current syntax WD editor's copy? (is there a pointer
on the WG home?)
<dajobe> yes
[jjcscribe] 9: rdfs-transitive-subProperty
<AaronSw> Approving Jos' Test Case
[jjcscribe] Nobody has reviewed
<AaronSw> no one yet approved it...
<AaronSw> ACTION DanC, PatH take a look at the test case.
[jjcscribe] Action: PatH to review rdfs-transitive-subProperty
[jjcscribe] Action:DanC to review rdfs-transitive-subProperty
[jjcscribe] 10: Manifest Proposal
<AaronSw> Jan: manifest proposal
<DanC> would the keybard-monster pls mute?
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[jjcscribe] Jos needs rdfs and rdf entailment clairifcation
<gk> Jos has problems with lack of distinction between RDF entailment,
RDFS entailment, etc
[jjcscribe] Jan invites Jos to suggest modification, inventing test type
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<AaronSw> ... also log:includes and log:notIncludes to work on
<AaronSw> ... hoping that jan would unify, but I can take that over as
well
<AaronSw> bwm: where does this text belong? test cases wd?
<AaronSw> ... who will edit that doc?
[jjcscribe] Brian: we need an owner for test cases
[jjcscribe] Brian asks Jan to co-edit Test Cases wd
<AaronSw> Jan volunteers.
[jjcscribe] Jan thinks he can edit it.
<AaronSw> DanC: we have 3 mos.
[jjcscribe] Jan will come back if he does not have enough time (in a
week or two)
<AaronSw> bwm: more an issue of having an owner than getting it out
<AaronSw> jos: i'll help with technical things
<AaronSw> jjc: important to keep test cases up-to-date
<AaronSw> [ access considerations to W3C server ]
<AaronSw> ACTION Jan: Give access to the Test Cases WD.
[jjcscribe] Action Jan to get access to appropriate space on W3C site
for Test Cases
[jjcscribe] Dave asks for team contact support
<AaronSw> s/Give/get/
<DanC> I think Jan's action is to request that Eric give him access.
[jjcscribe] Action Jan to find out what is needed in terms of access
[jjcscribe] Item 11 Datatypes
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[jjcscribe] Sergey still absent - postponed
[jjcscribe] 12: rdfms-names-use
[jjcscribe] seconded by DanC
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<AaronSw> 12: RDF Names Use
<AaronSw> 2nded by COnnolly
<AaronSw> danc: rdf:_nn not special
[jjcscribe] JJc asks if rdf:_NNN is strill allowed as tryped node
<AaronSw> no objections, no abstentions
[jjcscribe] daveB yes
[jjcscribe] |Proposal agreed
[jjcscribe] Action DaveB to create test cases
<AaronSw> ACTION dajobe: take test cases
[jjcscribe] P196?
*** Server connection lost
Dan indicates that P196 was to reserve namespace for future use.


Brian: some have not implemented this at all
       some have assumed that it was a typo


Jeremy reminds group that DaveB proposed dropping this para
       seonds proposal

Dan wants to keep some record

Pat suggests footnote

Aaron points out this is the URI of M&S

Action DaveB to create test case showing this name is not special
Decision drop para 196 
no dissent

Dave points out no update of syntax doc is required.

+Sergey

11. Datatypes

Action 11-16#9 continued
       11-16#10 done - but no responses since too early
       11-16#11 with DAML+OIL

   Pat: indicates that Patel-Schneider believes that blank node
proposals (incl S) 
violate current XML practice

   The use of range specs is common and is a good thing.
   Brian indicates that this includes lexical mappings.
   PatH issues to do with union datatypes and lexical mappings

  Can of worms.


  P preferred, U could be accomodate, S could be lived with.

  Action Mike to summarise joint committee position, confirm with them,
get back to us


Sergey's doc
------------

Dan: "great", Graham's stuff should be incorporated.

Dan gives overview of Perl typing.

Jena & Squish take this view.

PatH thinks of Perl as bcpl of thinking

    stops using type info as a constraint.

patrick: appreciates Perl
    In perl using string comp is on lexical forms
          whereas int comp is on value 
    leaves decision as to which space is left to operator


Graham: propogramming languages stuff maybe misleading

DanC: Perl documentation says there is one type "scalar"

DanC reiterates e-mail about entailment

Brian proposes we include something about P proposal

Action Pat to write P proposal in .

DanC will write up Perl approach
    DaveB and FrankB interested

Jjc will write up 


Meeting cut off.
Received on Friday, 30 November 2001 17:57:23 EST

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