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RE: Quick Comments on Types/Encoding of XML

From: John Boyer <jboyer@uwi.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:13:01 -0700
To: "Donald E. Eastlake 3rd" <dee3@torque.pothole.com>, "IETF/W3C XML-DSig WG " <w3c-ietf-xmldsig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <NDBBLAOMJKOFPMBCHJOIEELOCBAA.jboyer@uwi.com>

Hi,

My problem stemmed from concern that we were throwing away the fragment
context.  That is, if we decide that you couldn't use

    <Locations>scheme://authority/path#fragment<Location>

for Location, I'd like for there to be something I can put in Location
and in Transformations that would have exactly the same effect.  So if
instead I use

    <Location>scheme//authority/path</Locations>
    <Transformations>
         <Transform Algorithm="...">
             <Parameter>fragment</Parameter>
         </Transform>
    </Transformations>

Is there an Algorithm I can define so that this has the same effect as
the fragment on the end of a URI?  The answer is, if Content-Type
inforamtion is not forwarded, no, because a fragment on the end of a
URI is defined to invoke the fragment processor for the MIME type of
the data pointed to dynamically determined at run time.

<John>
Actually, the fragment processor is defined. It is in the three dots where
you left out the Algorithm.  So, we have two different ways of identifying
the fragment processor.  I recommended identifying the fragment processor by
giving its name directly in the Algorithm attribute.  You are recommending
that we follow the URI-reference notion of picking the fragment processor
based on the input type.

I recommended Algorithm for the following reasons:

1) There is no reason to stick with URI-reference's limitations on
identifying the fragment processor since we are not using URI-references.
We use only a URI in Location, so we are free to create a syntax that
explicitly identifies the fragment processor.  For example, if the Algorithm
is Xpointer, then the input type must be in xml format and the fragment is
interpreted according to Xpointer's rules.  If the input document is not
XML, then it doesn't matter whether you called the attribute Algorithm or
InputType, the transformation is going to fail.

2) We have multiple fragment processors for the same document type.  How
does knowing the input type allow us to choose?  It doesn't, so the
Algorithm identifier is necessary.  The InputType is nice to have but overly
verbose given that we know the fragment processor already.

3) It seemed to simplify error handling.  If you declare an InputType, then
who is responsible for finding out whether the data is in fact of the given
type?  Seemingly one must parse the document first and if it truly XML or
PDF or whatever, then pass it along to the fragment processor.  What I'm
proprosing is that the Algorithm indicates the fragment processor, which
implicitly must parse the document to reach the fragment, and if the
fragment processor fails, then obviously the document was wrong.

This has an added advantage for resource-constrained implementations.  If
your app is going to processs very small and specific documents, then you
can write a special fragment processor that can only deal with the types of
documents in your app domain (like one that only does barenames in
XPointer).  Anyone wanting to verify the signatures you create can obviously
still do that, but you are not required to run a processor on the data first
to check whether it matches the InputType.

4) I have a preference for having attributes qualify the content of the
element rather than some input data that, because of our processing rules,
we happen to know will be passed to an algorithm specified by the element
content.  If the Algorithm says Xpointer, then the Transformation content is
an XPointer.  This seemed cleaner than saying the InputType said text/xml,
so if the data we are processing truly is XML, then the content of
Transformation is either an XPath, XPointer or XSLT.

</John>

In fact, I think that treat-as-a-fragment is sufficiently useful that it
would
make sense to make it the default Transform (and Parameter type).  On
the other hand, in the message below, it seems to be said that this
isn't worth much or if it is it should be accomodated by explicitly
providing the MIME type as in

   <Location>scheme//authority/path</Locations>
   <Transformations>
       <Transform InputType="text/html">
	   <Parameter>fragment</Parameter>
        </Transform>
   </Transformations>

<John>
I previously thought you wanted InputType, which is what I think is
redundant (see above).  I don't think it is necessary to implicitly or
explicitly carry the type information.  If the indicated fragment processor
fails, then the data wasn't of the right type and the signature should fail
to create or fail to verify.
</John>

I guess the concept of dynamically determined type being past along
isn't particularly valuable for signatures so I'm willing to go for
the InputType form above.  That way of handling things would also
solve cases like the following for charset

    <Location>ftp://example.com/miscellaneous/file</Location>
    <Transformations>
        <Transform Algorithm="urn:minimalCanon" Charset="shift-jis" />
    </Transformations>

So, since there wasn't much support for it and substantial opposition,
I'm willing to drop the idea of passing along type/charset/etc. info
and have those just be provided as Transform input.

<John>
Again, I'm not arguing for InputType nor even passing along type/charset
implicitly. Given the properly defined algorithm, it is never necessary.

In your c14n example above, what do you mean by the Charset attribute? If it
is the output charset, then I assumed that information would be a parameter
to the CanonicalizationAlgorithm inside of the Transformation, not an
attribute of the Transform itself.  If it identifies the charset of the data
coming into the transform, then

1) we run into the same bag of tricks about making sure it truly has that
encoding before proceeding.
2) the fragment processor will most likely wipe out on bad data
3) For nonXML I envisioned that such data as this would, if necessary,
appear as parameters inside of the Transformation content.  We cannot design
document specific Transformations in our spec.  Not only that, but even if
we claimed some non-XML was in a particular encoding, we'd still need
app-specific transforms to handle it because we don't know how future
non-XML documents will indicate charsets.
4) For XML, I envisioned this possibility and accounted for it by forcing
the transformation rules to prepend the XMLDecl and UTF16 byte code to the
result of any XML transform.  This was also done in part because I couldn't
tell whether XPath gave any control over that.
5) I'm trying to get the Transformation element's attributes to describe the
Transformation element's content.  The content itself needs to specify what
the algorithm will do to data it receives.

</John>

Thanks,
Donald

PS: I put MIME types and charsets as attributes above because it felt
natural to do so.  I put Location as an Element even though it is a
URI and I think should probably be an attribute.

<John>
Right now Location is an element in the spec.  ObjectReference is an element
that binds a set of elements (Location, Transformations, etc.) that will
ultimately result in a digest.  It seems odd to make Location into an
attribute simply because it identifies the first step in obtaining that
data.  If such a change were made, then should the first Transform become an
attribute, then the second,...,then all Transformations, then the digest
algorithm?  The resulting element should be called DigestValue not
ObjectReference since all of the information necessary to obtain the digest
has ended up in the attributes.
</John>

PPS:  A few more not very important comments of mine below...

From:  Mark Bartel <mbartel@thistle.ca>
Resent-Date:  Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:28:40 -0400 (EDT)
Resent-Message-Id:  <199910152128.RAA17363@www19.w3.org>
Message-ID:  <91F20911A6C0D2118DF80040056D77A2032A56@arren.roke.thistle.ca>
To:  "'John Boyer '" <jboyer@uwi.com>,
            "'IETF/W3C XML-DSig WG '"
    	 <w3c-ietf-xmldsig@w3.org>
Date:  Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:28:33 -0400

>I agree with John here.  I must admit that the whole argument about types &
>transformations confused me until I realized that the idea was to redefine
>what a transformation was.
>
>So, in the interest of clarifying the problem, I'll explain my thinking.
>
>As I understand it, the original idea was that the transformations were a
>pipeline taking in an octet stream at one end and producing an output octet
>stream.  Very simple and straightforward; one input and one output.
>
>The new idea is to augment the octet stream, by adding a parallel type.  In
>other words, each algorithm would have two inputs and two outputs, one of
>which is an octet stream and the other a "type".  The idea comes from the
>http world where one retrieves a document (analogous to our octet stream)
>and also gets a whole whack of other information along with it in the http
>headers, including the mime type of the document.  Browsers also sometimes
>utilize the file extension to determine type.
>
>The motivation for the new concept is that some transformations require
>knowledge of the input type.  The main example is the fragment id, which is
>defined per type.  Another example is character set encodings.
>
>I strongly feel that transformations should have one input and one output.
>This makes the specification and implementation for each transformation
much
>simpler and therefore simplifies interoperability and testing.  The
document
>being transformed is not going to switch from being text/html to image/jpeg
>betwixt the signing and the verification, and if it does the signature
>wouldn't verify anyway.  The html or jpeg parser needs to throw errors for
>invalid input regardless of what we choose.  For transformations that need
>the input type, the input type or character set can be specified as a
>parameter on that transformation when the signature is created.

Well, being pedantic, if you can specify Parameters, the Transforms
have more than one input.  But they have only one output and there is
only one thig that is passed to the next Transform in sequence, which
is a simplification.

<John>Technically, agreed.  A transform algorithm takes its input data as a
parameter (but that is implied not stated as a Parameter element).  The
explicit parameter to, for example the XPointer transform, is the XPointer.
Since none of the defined transforms needed more than one explicit parameter
(and since we did not have as strong a Parameter element bent at the time),
I didn't make one up.  It particularly didn't make sense for the Java
transform.  For app-defined transforms, they were already free to define
whatever was inside of Transformation anyway.

>For character set encodings, I don't think there is much we can do for the
>general case.  Frequently it won't be an issue, the character set will stay
>constant between signing and verification.  If they have an entire XML
>document, the character set can be determined from the prolog.  Otherwise,
>there is no way of knowing.  The http protocol may give us some information
>that could be passed through in the dual-input/output model, but any other
>protocol probably won't give us useful information.
>
>In the XML case, we could recommend dealing with this issue by
>canonicalizing the entire document into UTF-8, and then picking out the
>appropriate fragment.  Doing it the other way around would lose the
>character set encoding information.

It is possible that you have a piece of XML and independent knowledge
that its in some particular charset.  I don't see how this is much
different from MIME type.  If needed, it can be a Transform parameter.

<John>
A Transform parameter would be much better than an attribute.  However, how
did you come upon this independent knowledge of charset?  In the
transformations as they were defined (see the XPath processing rules), you
never lose it.

John Boyer
Software Development Manager
UWI.Com -- The Internet Forms Company
</John>

>-Mark Bartel
>JetForm
Received on Thursday, 21 October 1999 16:13:02 GMT

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