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Re: What is it that's wrong with rdf:List

From: Pat Hayes <phayes@ihmc.us>
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:05:16 -0500
Cc: Paul Gearon <gearon@ieee.org>, Norman Gray <norman@astro.gla.ac.uk>, Semantic Web <semantic-web@w3.org>
Message-Id: <CC2B7E47-CCDB-4401-B6B2-CC2D295D6FA6@ihmc.us>
To: Andy Seaborne <andy.seaborne@talis.com>

On Jun 19, 2010, at 11:54 AM, Andy Seaborne wrote:

>
>
> On 17/06/2010 11:35 PM, Paul Gearon wrote:
>> The main problem with an RDF list is that there is no mechanism in
>> SPARQL to query or update them. SPARQL only allows you to form  
>> queries
>> that explicitly describe connections, while an arbitrary list can  
>> have
>> any number of elements down its length. That means that you can refer
>> to, say, the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th elements in the list, but there is no
>> way to refer to ALL the elements in the list, since you don't know  
>> how
>> long the list is.
>>
>> SPARQL 1.1 will fix this problem with "property paths".
>
> with
>
> { <list> rdf:rest*/rdf:first ?x }
>
> this is only a partial solution:
>
> 1/ Order in a list is not preserved

? Preserved by what? Lists in RDF have an order (that is, the elements  
of the list are put into an order by the list.) What is it that  
doesn't 'preserve' this?

> yet the nature of a list is that it is ordered (e.g. authors of a  
> paper).
>
> 2/ { ?list rdf:rest*/rdf:first ?x } does not do what you might  
> think  it does.  A tail of an rdf:List is itself a list so if you  
> have (1 2 3)
> then there are lists (1 2 3), (2 3) and (3) in the graph.  (This  
> isn't as major as the lack of order.)

This is how lists are in LISP (c. 1959) and in every list-processing  
language since. Don't go blaming RDF for this.

>
> As Paul says, update is not pretty.
>
> The complete solution would be to have lists as first class data  
> object in the RDF model (as well as bags).

Um, they are. Lists as described by the RDF List vocabulary are  
*exactly* the LIsp model of a list. What more do you mean by 'first- 
class'? SPARQL could easily allow list-specific querying which  
presumes that the RDF uses the rdf:List vocabulary correctly (and  
produces unpredictable results if not, say.)

>  Like RDF containers, modelling as triples, then exposing the  
> triples means the gory details are passed onto the application and  
> assumes everyone plays the game.
>
> Nathan - this is the nature of lists that SPARQL is dealing with.   
> It could have imposed a list concept but that would only be for  
> SPARQL, not RDF in general.
>
> 	Andy
>
>
>

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Received on Saturday, 19 June 2010 21:07:20 GMT

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