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Re: representing null in semantic frameworks

From: Garret Wilson <garret@globalmentor.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 13:01:25 -0700
Message-ID: <471A5E95.8090609@globalmentor.com>
To: Frank Manola <fmanola@acm.org>
CC: Story Henry <henry.story@bblfish.net>, Semantic Web <semantic-web@w3.org>

Frank,

Frank Manola wrote:
>
> Not exactly.  rdf:nil doesn't represent "no list at all", it 
> represents the empty list (see RDF Semantics).

Oops, my bad. The name threw me off, and I made an assumption... :)


>  I'm not trying to play with words here.

No, of course not---I understand exactly. I was mistaken.

> I know what you're getting at, but a resource that represents no 
> resource sounds a little odd.  I mean, it *is* a resource, right?  It 
> really needs to mean something other than "no resource".

First, let me expand my disclaimer---I have no agenda regarding null, or 
even well-thought opinions regarding null, other than I know that if I 
represent an instance graph of, say, Java or JavaScript objects then at 
some point I'll have to deal with them. (Someone said offline that the 
very concept of null is fraught with multiple meanings and hidden 
issues, and I suspect that's the case.) Hence my request for any 
references of this discussion having already taken place. If it hasn't, 
and people want to discuss it here, that's great---I appreciate the input.

As to what you say above: Perhaps null really is *not* a resource. For 
example, IEEE 754 floating point numbers (which appear throughout 
computing---even in RDF through the use of xsd:float as a typed literal 
datatype) has the concept of a floating point value that is *not* a 
number (which is why they are called NaNs). In fact, NaN does not even 
equal itself. Perhaps it needs to be something built into the very 
framework itself representing "no resource at all". (I don't know; I'm 
contemplating.)

>
>
> Well, as a practical matter in language design, let's work out our use 
> cases a little more carefully :-)  Clearly, a simple null as the value 
> of, say, ex:score isn't going to represent "there was no score that 
> week because there was a tornado that canceled the game" right?  
> That's an awful lot of meaning to stuff into one little null!  So 
> first off we're thinking in terms of a separate property or properties 
> that describe, say, *why* the score is what it is.  After all, if the 
> game were postponed due to the next inning starting beyond curfew 
> (happens in Boston anyway) the score might be 5-5 but not final (the 
> game would be resumed later), so we'd want to indicate that somehow.  
> On the other hand, considering the game status after 1/2 inning, the 
> score might be visiting team zero, home team "no score" (on the 
> broadcasts they say "coming to bat").  This sort of sounds like a 
> null, but it isn't a general one, but rather one specialized for the 
> type (this could also be handled with some kind of "game status" 
> information).  All the proposed uses of nulls that I'm familiar with 
> have similar complexities that come out when you look at them more 
> carefully.  My general preference would be to deal explicitly with the 
> potential specializations, rather than lumping a lot of semantics into 
> a general null.  Again, the question of what exactly would this null 
> *mean* has to be answered.

I agree, and in general "what null means" must be specified by the 
ontology using it. In my experience null is used in certain programming 
languages to mean various things because, in *very* strongly typed 
languages, all your other choices are taken because they are legitimate 
return values. Maybe that's not as useful in a semantic 
framework---maybe you can (and should) always create some value that 
will represent all the choices, even error conditions (we don't have a 
score for the game; no reason was given). Maybe the only value of null 
in a semantic framework is when a programming language object instance 
graph is being represented.

But I for one would like to see semantic frameworks be more strongly 
typed. That's one reason why we all go to great lengths to specify 
ontologies using OWL---so that machines can expect what types of values 
certain properties can take. My first impression is that it might be 
useful to have some means of representing "we expected a value here, but 
we don't have one---even if we don't know why."


>
> I don't specifically recall a lot of discussion about this in RDF Core 
> (someone else might have a better recollection, and perhaps there were 
> earlier discussions in developing the 1999 specs).  However, allow me 
> to point you to the endless discussions (and the associated 
> complexity) caused by allowing nulls in the relational data model (of 
> which RDF can be considered a specialization).  Simply Google 
> "relational null" and have a grand time!

I shall---thanks for the pointer!

Best,

Garret
Received on Saturday, 20 October 2007 20:02:52 GMT

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