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Re: Dojinshi & Accessibility was: A new Semantic Web logo?

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:56:40 +0200
Message-ID: <47109658.1080605@w3.org>
To: ~:'' ありがとうございました。 <j.chetwynd@btinternet.com>
CC: Benjamin Nowack <bnowack@semsol.com>, semantic-web@w3.org


~:'' ありがとうございました。 wrote:
> Ivan,
> 
> [1] Doug proposes including text with opacity="0", it's also necessary
> to add title and desc for each file.

And, as I said, it should be visibility="hidden" instead... but the
essence is the same.

> 
> As you say it is certainly necessary to add RDF metadata, for machines
> one wants copyright info but also something that makes it as easy as
> possible for users to find and understand.

Yep.

> 
> should text and paths be surrounded by an anchor link to
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ ?
> 

Well... I am not sure. Applications using the SVG as, say, part of their
own SVG figures might be a bit bothered by that, they may want to have a
better control (eg, for the target) on how they want to use a link on
the logo.

> [2] This loses much of the potential of font, for the present.
> 

That is, unfortunately, true, and I have been bitten by this problem
several time already. This is a problem with all the W3C logos (that are
all available in SVG, too). But Doug seems to be optimistic that the
problem will, eventually, go away!

FWIW, I have made the changes on all the SW logos on my local machine
already. I wait to see if somebody has a good add-on to what we have,
and I can then upload them either later today or on Monday.

thanks for all this

Ivan

> regards
> 
> Jonathan Chetwynd
> Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet
> 
> [1] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/attachment.cgi?id=493
> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5190
> 
> 
> [2] This still doesn't take account of users preferences, or language.
> It seems clear that the user with specific needs should be able to
> render any SVG text in a font of their choice using a style sheet.
> Similarly some software, perhaps on mobile phones might have 'fixed
> fonts' and not be able to render the glyphs provided. eg safari, camino
> and mozilla use different default fonts.
> If that much is agreed, then W3C has no absolute control over the
> rendering in any case.
> Are examples in other languages to be allowed, eg greek japanese russian
> etc?
> 
> my concern is as expressed elsewhere that the licence should be broader,
> preferably PD.
> but in any case so that the graphic can be displayed alone.
> ie for symbol users, rather than readers.
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG-access/#ReUsingText
> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG-access/#Fonts2
> 
> -- 
> 
> On 12 Oct 2007, at 17:07, Ivan Herman wrote:
> 
> Dear Jonathan,
> 
> let me give some backgroun explanation and propose a solution to see if
> that would work with you.
> 
> It is true that, in an ideal world, SVG should include texts as, well,
> texts, and not in geometry. And the specification of SVG allows that. It
> is also possible to add a description of a font (or the characters that
> are used from a font) into the SVG file itself to ensure a proper
> rendering on all environment, independently of the fonts being stored
> locally.
> 
> The very practical problem, however, is that a number of SVG players
> (eg, Mozilla) do not understand (yet, hopefully!) those text statements
> with font descriptions. In order to have the logo displayed properly, we
> had to go  back to the original design, do a version that turned the
> characters into geometry, and export that into SVG.
> 
> However: what I would propose to do is to add RDF metadata into the SVG
> file (this is perfectly possible, too) that would include dc terms
> including a description containing the text of the logo (plus, eg,
> copyright info). Is this agreeable to you? This is something that could
> be done within a few days (alas, it should be done individually in a
> text editor:-)
> 
> Ivan
> 
> ~:'' ありがとうございました。 wrote:
>>
>> Benji,
>>
>> I'm not at sure this is trivial, I'd like to see what the Comm and SW
>> WGs suggest.
>> I've asked the SVG WG to propose or point to an example of excellence.
>>
>> presumably they should contain some CC licence information, or at least
>> a pointer to the copyright notice, etc.
>>
>> who might be appropriate to discuss this with?
>> who created the original design?
>>
>> one further concern is translation, in their current form it doesn't
>> seem possible, due to both the design and copyright restrictions. Our
>> users for instance cannot read, but might well benefit from the symbol
>> in understanding something of it's meaning in a future context.
>>
>> regards
>>
>>
>> Jonathan Chetwynd
>> Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet
>>
>> I'm also considering how to annotate the weather symbols I published
>> recently on wikipedia.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12 Oct 2007, at 14:11, Benjamin Nowack wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Jonathan,
>>
>> thanks for the hint. I didn't create the SVGs, and I personally wouldn't
>> have the relevant skills to add the textual information, but I'm sure
>> the Comm team is more than happy to replace the files if someone sends
>> them properly annotated ones. Or is that a trivial task? I think it's
>> great that they provide SVGs at all.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Benji
>>
>> On 11.10.2007 15:56:13, ~:'' ありがずうございたした。 wrote:
>>> I've only had a chance to have a brief look at the new logo.
>>>
>>> Benji
>>>
>>> I like the SVG graphic But....
>>> It does have significant defects.
>>>
>>> the text-rendering is defined but there is no text.
>>> in fact the file has literally not a single content identifier of any
>>> sort.
>>> unless the file is rendered it is literally impossible to tell what
>>> it might be.
>>> pace those that render in their minds...
>>>
>>> The Web Accessibility Initiative WCAG guidelines suggest this is not
>>> good practice.
>>>
>>> I'd hope the SWEO and Comm teams might also include relevant semantic
>>> information.
>>>
>>> regarding the exceptionally restrictive copyright restrictions it
>>> might be relevant to review Lawrence Lessig on Dojinshi.
>>>
>>> apologies if this seems heavy handed, or I got the wrong end of the
>>> stick
>>> as I say in a rush..
>>>
>>> regards
>>>
>>>
>>> Jonathan Chetwynd
>>> Accessibility Consultant on Media Literacy and the Internet
>>>
>>> Michael Schneider wrote:
>>>
>>>>     http://www.w3.org/2007/10/sw-logos.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> 

-- 

Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf


Received on Saturday, 13 October 2007 09:56:48 GMT

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