Re: [ontac-forum] Re: Semantic Layers (Was Interpretation of RDF reification)

Harry,

If you try to intelligently challenge somebody's claims, avoid rhetoric and 
digressing into irrelevant topics, but stick to the subject of discussion.

Azamat

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Harry Halpin" <hhalpin@ibiblio.org>
To: "Azamat" <abdoul@cytanet.com.cy>
Cc: <semantic-web@w3.org>; "Paul S Prueitt" <psp@virtualTaos.net>; 
<danny.ayers@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: [ontac-forum] Re: Semantic Layers (Was Interpretation of RDF 
reification)


>
> My comments had nothing whatsoever against Bunge personally or his
> formal systems, which I haven't read and am unlikely to anytime soon. In
> my last post you could have replaced "Bunge" with "Azamat" or
> "Aristotle" or anyone else that may have a Unifying Framework Ontology.
> I was just making the point that *any* Unifying Framework Ontology is
> exactly what its acronym stands for - a UFO, an *unidentified flying
> object* that no-one will ever agree on for real-world use. Therefore
> expecting the Semantic Web to build the provide its users with Unifying
> Framework Ontology is an invalid criticism, and also in my opinion UFOs
> are a bad idea that current philosophy and psychology (and most of KR)
> seemed to have given up on a long time ago for reasons re-iterated 
> earlier.
>
> However, if you still think UFOs are a good idea, the Semantic Web gives
> you the formal semantics and language to attempt to define one yourself.
> *Just do it* and stop complaining that the Semantic Web has
> misinterpreted Bunge/you/Paul Prueitt/whatever. I don't think this sort
> of stuff was even on the horizon (again, for good reason I think) when
> things were being standardized. If you wish to build a UFO using RDF and
> OWL, please look at some of the others like DOLCE, and just do it, and
> send everyone an e-mail when it's finished.
>
> In the meantime, in attempt to spare the rest of this listserv, please
> respond to me about UFOs, pragmatics, semiotics, reality models,
> difference and repetition, obscure philosophers, and such *off-list. *
> Please.
>
>               cheers,
>                      harry
> Azamat wrote:
>>
>> Harry,
>>
>> Want to clear some points, which you  are heavily (mis)using in your
>> argumentation with Paul. It seems you somehow missed my comments on
>> Bunge's formal philosophy sent to the ONTAC forum:
>> ''His philosophical position is badly skewed, with tendency to
>> scientific factualism and Quine's nominalism.'' However  formalized,in
>> no way such world scheme can be used as a unifying framework ontology
>> (UFO), although some good computing researchers try to do this. Just
>> sketching the outline of the UFO as a general ontological framework
>> for the Real Web, this reality model consists of the following
>> formative elements:
>>
>> UFO: Lattice (Set) Theory + n-Relational Algebra + Aristotle's
>> Categories, Analytics, Topics, Metaphysics, Physics (Substantial
>> Ontology) + Kant's Ontology (Relational Ontology).
>>
>> Note that the OWL, or rather LWL language, is nothing but an
>> idiosyncratic interpretation of the Topics' notions of ''class'',
>> ''property'', ''individual'', ''definition'', ''statement'',
>> ''sameness'' ''difference'' and ''subsumption'', fully missing the
>> substance and content of any significant universe of discourse, the
>> fundamental ontological classes or predicates. It is quite possible
>> that its authors don't know about this, thinking they created
>> something original.
>>
>> Respects,
>> Azamat Abdoullaev
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Halpin" <hhalpin@ibiblio.org>
>> To: "Paul S Prueitt" <psp@virtualTaos.net>
>> Cc: "'Danny Ayers'" <danny.ayers@gmail.com>; "'adasal'"
>> <adam.saltiel@gmail.com>; <semantic-web@w3.org>
>> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 6:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ontac-forum] Re: Semantic Layers (Was Interpretation of
>> RDF reification)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> You're right - I am missing the point - it's not philosophy. When
>>> arguing against people that believe in the "One Big Ontology" approach
>>> or the "Perfect Design" approach, it's an argument against ideology.
>>> It's like arguing about the existence of God, and about as
>>> productive. :)
>>>
>>> And I'm not arguing against pragmatics per se, I'm arguing against
>>> standardizing notions of pragmatics. Instead, by decentralizing the
>>> creation of ontologies and allowing people to expose data as they see
>>> fit, they will build off their concrete real-life situations and
>>> experiences. Over time, useful abstract ontologies may or may not
>>> emerge. And yes, it is messy making this stuff fit in
>>> RDF/OWL-DL/whatever, but the same would hold with any formalism, period.
>>> And what I am arguing is that if people are supposed to use in a
>>> decentralized manner to build out of one standard centralized ontology
>>> (i.e. Entity/Endurant/whatever) and one that tried to delimit pragmatics
>>> (illocutionary/some bizarre version of control theory/etc) then well,
>>> it's going to *a lot worse.* Give people minimal constraints, not
>>> maximal ones.
>>>
>>> So get around to expressing your pragmatics in OWL-DL or RDF or KIF or
>>> whatever. And then show a real-life use case. Then who knows, nothing
>>> prevents you from standardizing it yourself. Then if enough people use
>>> it, the ISO or W3C could give it their stamp of approval. But to
>>> critique the Semantic Web for not reading (Fill in your favorite
>>> ontology/philosopher here, like Bunge) and standardizing him is kinda
>>> silly, since that would obviously be a case of premature optimization.
>>>
>>> Until then, I'm going to do what I'm sure almost everyone else on this
>>> list-serv is doing, which is ignore this whole thread so I can get some
>>> work done :)
>>>
>>> Paul S Prueitt wrote:
>>>> You miss the point, as most do in the W3C column.
>>>>
>>>> For a discussion of the issue of representation of reality with a
>>>> formal
>>>> system, please review
>>>>
>>>> http://www.bcngroup.org/area3/pprueitt/kmbook/Chapter2.htm
>>>>
>>>> And citations referenced ...
>>>>
>>>> It is not correct to think of this as philosophy.  There are real
>>>> practical
>>>> problems with the notion that formalism (created by knowledge
>>>> engineering
>>>> individuals often without deep insight into domain specific context)
>>>> would
>>>> be found acceptable outside of these (knowledge engineering
>>>> context). BioPax
>>>> is perhaps the best example of good cell and gene signal expression
>>>> ontology
>>>> - and this ontology is designed to take a step towards data sharing
>>>> - not
>>>> designed to explain signal expression.  Again, practical issues
>>>> arise when
>>>> OWL is used in complex situations.  One can work around this, as BioPAX
>>>> does; nicely, but one cannot remove certain issues (related to
>>>> degeneracy of
>>>> entailment in specific instances).
>>>>
>>>> But it is not merely that the wrong community might be designing
>>>> ontology
>>>> for the rest of us, it is that (any) formalism is the result of
>>>> induction.
>>>> In so many cases, what is needed is that the ontological model be
>>>> formative
>>>> in the context of a real situation, now; ie have a pragmatic dimension.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Harry Halpin [mailto:hhalpin@ibiblio.org]
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 7:59 AM
>>>> To: Paul S Prueitt
>>>> Cc: 'Danny Ayers'; 'adasal'; semantic-web@w3.org;
>>>> timbl+speaking@w3.org;
>>>> colette.maloney@cec.eu.int
>>>> Subject: Re: [ontac-forum] Re: Semantic Layers (Was Interpretation
>>>> of RDF
>>>> reification)
>>>>
>>>> I'm tempted to suggest that this conversation be moved to
>>>> semantic-web-philosophy@w3.org. I'm also tempted to take a line from
>>>> Pat
>>>> Hayes's argument against TimBL on whether or not a URI addresses a
>>>> single unambiguous thing, and just say "Look, you're not wrong, you're
>>>> just insane"  as regards people who are complaining about the Web
>>>> lacking semiotics/pragmatics/the perfect design/a better syntax :)
>>>>
>>>> The entire point of the Web is that people have can create different
>>>> ontologies, which represent not necessarily agreeing points of view.
>>>> People can and will use different levels of abstractions and want to
>>>> talk about different things in differing manners, even using different
>>>> sorts of syntax. Despite this, by giving them the same formal semantics
>>>> and one naming system (URIs), they can actually use (owl:import) and
>>>> talk about each other.
>>>>
>>>> As soon as anyone says "I invented the *One Perfect Ontology*, and it
>>>> even includes very subjective things like *pragmatics* and *semiotics*,
>>>> so if everyone should use my one ontology and all our problems go away"
>>>> - well, I'd have to say that's a bad and naive idea. Assuming there is
>>>> "The One  Big Ontology" out there we can all use endorses a naive
>>>> logical positivism (a sort of blatantly wrong reading of the Tracatus)
>>>> and this sort of thinking has been ditched by both philosophers and
>>>> psychologists (as well as most ordinary people). There is a giant
>>>> well-documented literature in philosophy and psychology that (no
>>>> surprise) shows our perceptions and abstractions are situation-specific
>>>> - I would recommend the work of Andy Clark for easy-to-read
>>>> introductions. I would say that the same applies to the "Look at My
>>>> Great Design" argument that Sowa was advocating earlier.
>>>>
>>>> So, yes, just implement a standard upper ontology of pragmatics and
>>>> semiotics (in KIF, OWL, whatever) and then e-mail the listserv when it
>>>> actually does something useful using a real-life use-case instead of
>>>> complaining that the Semantic Web doesn't map directly onto it, and
>>>> people will be pleased. You may even win the RDF.net prize!
>>>>
>>>>  But even then it will never solve everyone's KR problems, and the
>>>> entire point of the Semantic Web isn't to endorse "One Big Ontology
>>>> based on Bunge" but to allow people to create their own small
>>>> ontologies
>>>> in a decentralized manner. And that may be a good idea.
>>>>
>>>> Paul S Prueitt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You suggest in
>>>>>
>>>>> " The RDF/OWL view doesn't really make a distinction between Upper
>>>>> Level
>>>>> Ontologies and Domain Ontologies, but it has been demonstrated that
>>>>> ULOs
>>>>>
>>>> can
>>>>
>>>>> be expressed in RDF/OW"
>>>>>
>>>>> That there exist upper level ontology that meets all requirement
>>>>> imagined
>>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>
>>>>> Semantic Web language and that it has been demonstrated that this
>>>>> upper
>>>>> level ontology can be expressed in OWL?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this what you are suggesting?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Danny Ayers [mailto:danny.ayers@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 5:50 AM
>>>>> To: ONTAC-WG General Discussion
>>>>> Cc: adasal; John F. Sowa; semantic-web@w3.org; Paul S Prueitt;
>>>>> brian.macklin@cec.eu.int; timbl+speaking@w3.org;
>>>>>
>>>> colette.maloney@cec.eu.int
>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ontac-forum] Re: Semantic Layers (Was Interpretation
>>>>> of RDF
>>>>> reification)
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/3/06, Azamat <abdoul@cytanet.com.cy> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Simply put,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> we must understand which web (or architectural pillars) most fits the
>>>>>> matter, the formal semantic web (i.e., the syntactic web, known as
>>>>>> the SW
>>>>>> layer cake) or the real semantic web, something like this version:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Real Semantic Web> ::= <Ontological Framework> < Logical Framework>
>>>>>> <Semiotics> <the Web>
>>>>>> <Ontological Framework> ::= <UFO> <Upper Level Ontologies> <Domain
>>>>>> Ontologies> <EOL>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Logical Framework> ::= <FMF> | < ... > <EOL>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Semiotics> ::= <Pragmatics> <Semantics> <Syntax> <EOL>
>>>>>> <Pragmatics> ::= <Users> <Web Agents> <Intentions> <Actions>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> <Communication>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> < Proof, Trust> | <Truth> <EOL>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Semantics> ::= <Signs, Natural Language Expressions> <Meanings>
>>>>>> <EOL>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <Syntax> ::= <Rules> <OWL Ontology> <RDF Schema> <RDF M&S> < RDF>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> <XML/SGML>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> <Namespaces> <EOL>
>>>>>> <the Web> ::= <Resources, state, representation, identification, URI,
>>>>>> Unicode> <Interaction, sofware agents, hypertext links, protocols,
>>>>>> HTTP>
>>>>>> <data Formats, HTML, XHTML> <EOL>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm neither a philosopher nor logician, so forgive me if sounds naive:
>>>>> how does the above "grammar" conflict with what (if I understand
>>>>> correctly) you are calling the "syntactic web" - i.e. the Semantic Web
>>>>> of the W3C initiative?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, there are certainly differences, like here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> <Ontological Framework> ::= <UFO> <Upper Level Ontologies> <Domain
>>>>>> Ontologies> <EOL>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> The RDF/OWL view doesn't really make a distinction between Upper Level
>>>>> Ontologies and Domain Ontologies, but it has been demonstrated that
>>>>> ULOs can be expressed in RDF/OWL.
>>>>>
>>>>> ...here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> <Pragmatics> ::= <Users> <Web Agents> <Intentions> <Actions>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> <Communication>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> < Proof, Trust> | <Truth> <EOL>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> and here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> <the Web> ::= <Resources, state, representation, identification, URI,
>>>>>> Unicode> <Interaction, sofware agents, hypertext links, protocols,
>>>>>> HTTP>
>>>>>> <data Formats, HTML, XHTML> <EOL>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> - only half of each of these are explicit in the layer cake, the rest
>>>>> (I would suggest) being implicit parts of the system, e.g. the
>>>>> Semantic Web being an extension of the current Web, the current Web
>>>>> includes HTTP hence the SW includes HTTP. Both feature Users, Agents
>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> So it looks to me like your "real semantic web" is the same as the
>>>>> W3C's Semantic Web, but for a few undocumented features in the latter.
>>>>> Where's the problem?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Danny.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>
>>>>> http://dannyayers.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> -harry
>>>
>>> Harry Halpin,  University of Edinburgh
>>> http://www.ibiblio.org/hhalpin 6B522426
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> -harry
>
> Harry Halpin,  University of Edinburgh
> http://www.ibiblio.org/hhalpin 6B522426
>
>