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Minutes: XML Schema Patterns for Databinding F2F January 2008

From: <paul.downey@bt.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 16:56:28 -0000
Message-ID: <EFFE16B1340E654082DCD17D16429533ABA854@E03MVA3-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
To: <public-xsd-databinding@w3.org>

draft minutes from last week's face to face meeting are now available here:


and are copied below:

                                                     - DRAFT -

                                 XML Schema Patterns for Databinding Working Group F2F

30th Jan - 1st February 2008

W3C ERCIM, INRIA, Sophia Antipolis, France.


   See also: IRC log


          Jon Calladine (BT)
          George Cowe (Origo Services Limited)
          Paul Downey (BT)
          Yves Lafon (W3C)




     * Topics
         1. ISSUE-2: test suite
         2. ISSUE-12: identifying a conformant schema
         3. Planning Day#2
         4. GlobalComplexTypeAbstract
         5. lc-psd-3 SHOULD or MUST process any valid schema?
         6. lc-haas-1 "Difficulty to read patterns as expressed with XPath 2.0"
         7. Roundup
     * Summary of Action Items

   pauld: need to review where we are, guess our fresh pairs of eyes helps!

   pauld: I want to make sure the WG page is more understandable

   pauld: couldn't find a link to the detection service - it exisits?

   pauld: http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/detector/

   pauld: that page should point to the schematron, stylesheet the online and command line versions

   yves: I'll work on fixing the online version

   pauld: concerned how quickly we can redeploy that when we change / add patterns goal for this week is to
   publish LC WD of Basic and ideally Advanced! so we can all go home and stop cleaning this vendor toilet :)

   procedurally, we don't need to answer our own last call comments because we're going for another LC!

   we've processed all our LC issues, but one

ISSUE-2: test suite

   pauld: we don't highlight the difference between not running because of barf, bad tests, or because we didn't
   get aroud to it:

   yves: will work on fixing that!

   yves: Adrian ran most of our tests, can we re-run?

   pauld: it's in CVS, but he's not available and has rebuilt his environment, so would have to reinstall WCF etc

   george: can take a quick look

   pauld: OK, I don't want to lose this meeting to re-running tests for Advanced, or low-priority Basic patterns

   george: testing can always be done offline

   pauld: want to review specs, and hunt for patterns in the wild

   yves: we need a command line version

   pauld: OK, so you guys work on the detection service, make the online service link to our page which will have
   source code, stylesheet, etc, etc We need to answer one LC comment - lc-haas-1 on making the XPaths
   understandable. Need to incorporate Jon's examples:
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-xsd-databinding/2007Oct/0001.html. I want to hunt for more patterns
   'in the wild' from our collection. (I notice there's no link to
   http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/collection/ from WG page!) and the page is missing this output:
   http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/collection/. I'll work on making the report more credible, Jon
   will want to help there too, no doubt. We also need to review
   Am concerned that xs:date etc aren't "Advanced" we need to remember why and give a non-normative one-line
   . We think it's OK for Basic to be N/A, but Advanced should explain

   george: for all of them?

   pauld: just the types. I can do that work and the WG can review it

   <Yves> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/report/report_gsoap2_2.7.10_c.html#DateTimeAttribute04

   <Yves> http://xkcd.com/376/ :)

   <Yves> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2550

   <Yves> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/examples/6/09/

   pauld it might be nice to rerun the tests, at least for the kits we can easily.

   george: can run 12 or so

   yves: will make sure we communicate the difference between not running a test because we didn't run it, and not
   running a test because the tool barfed

   <gcowe> patterns detector source code can found in
   http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/detector/PatternsDetector.zip - this contains the .war file

   pauld: is there a process for generating that - an ant file?

   gcowe: that includes an old stylesheet - can remove that

   pauld: can we make an ant task to generate that, command line and war together? It's OK to include a stylesheet
   if it's regenerated when we change patterns.xml

ISSUE-12: identifying a conformant schema

   george: built a command line version of the patterns detector

   <gcowe> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/detector/client/

   <gcowe> contains java executables for detecting patterns in schema or WSDL and can be run on client machine

   pauld: looks great, can we add a link to the detector page, and fix the service?

   discussion of a version number for the stylesheet in the report.

   pauld: sounds like a lot of work to add it, and of little value given each pattern reported is uniquely named
   and versioned

   george: will add a link on the collection page

   <Yves> ***** NoTargetNamespace [PENDING]

   <Yves> ***** AnySimpleTypeElement [PENDING]

   <Yves> ***** HexBinaryElement [PENDING]

   <Yves> ***** HexBinaryAttribute [PENDING]

   <Yves> ***** UnionSimpleDateString [PENDING]

   <Yves> ***** PrecisionDecimal [PENDING]

   <Yves> ***** SOAPEncodedArray [PENDING]

   <Yves> ***** AttributeGroup [PENDING]

   <Yves> pending... basic? advanced? removed?

   we should review the status of patterns as a whole, tomorrow afternoon. Let's just work on coverage for now


   <gcowe> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/detector/ now contain information on running the client side
   executable jar to carry out detection of patterns in schema and WSDL

  Planning Day#2

   pauld: working on detector, adding an annotated schema as the output Yves to work on getting the detector as a
   service! George and Jon working on more patterns and examples driven by the Collection and tables in the
   Advanced spec. Yves working on more examples and patterns for the types. We'll regroup later, review, plan to
   re-run the testsuite tomorrow morning

   <gcowe> ComplexTypeAttributesOnly pattern xpath

   <gcowe> is //xs:complexType/xs:attribute[../not(xs:choice or xs:sequence or xs:all or xs:anyAttribute or
   xs:group or xs:attributeGroup or xs:simpleContent or xs:complexContent)]/(.)

   looks stinky, but works!

   <gcowe> agreed...


   pauld: can't really use this without complexContent, which is Advanced

   george: Origo had problems with tools and abstract

   pauld: we haven't tested it, move to Advanced!

   RESOLUTION: move GlobalComplexTypeAbstract to Advanced

  lc-psd-3 SHOULD or MUST process any valid schema?


   any objections to my proposal?

   RESOLUTION: accepted lc-psd-3

  lc-haas-1 "Difficulty to read patterns as expressed with XPath 2.0"

   pauld: Hugo correctly points out XPath 2.0 isn't well understood by some of our readership, and suggests a

   george: not well understood by me, either :)

   pauld: suggest looking at our patterns. We could write an appendix or a primer. It seems like a lot of work to
   me for us at this stage

   jonc: appendix with "worked examples" should be enough

   george: shouldn't be too long

   pauld: any volunteers? Agood way to understand it is to document it :)

   <JonC> should be me then...

   pauld: seems like a very slippery slope

   <Yves> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/examples/6/09/SubstitutionGroup/Overview.html

   pauld: suggest finding the idioms used in patterns.xml, enumerate them, then write one sentence on each
   referencing XPath 2.0 spec

   <scribe> ACTION: jcalladi to write an appendix on XPath idioms used in the specs [recorded in

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-127 - Write an appendix on XPath idioms used in the specs [on Jonathan Calladine -
   due 2008-02-08].

   RESOLUTION: accepted lc-haas-1 XPath patterns primer to appear in Basic and Advanced as an appendix


   pauld: so we think Basic is mostly done, pending Jonc's appendix. A rerun of some of the toolkits would be nice
   to go to PR with

   george: can look at that, the ones I can run at least

   pauld: coverage of our Advanced patterns is still a concern
   ... will work on my annotated schema report for the collection,
   ... and add patterns this avo as a result
   ... patterns detection service?

   george: made a command line version, and a serverlet version. Stylesheet is now separate

   yves: will try to get that running Monday

   pauld: command line is useful, but service is going to drive adoption

   OK, telcon on Tuesday to try to move both documents to Last Call


Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: jcalladi to write an appendix on XPath idioms used in the specs [recorded in
Received on Tuesday, 5 February 2008 16:57:06 UTC

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