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Minutes: XML Schema Patterns for Databinding F2F 31st July - 1st August 2006

From: <paul.downey@bt.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:50:53 +0100
Message-ID: <2A7793353757DB4392DF4DFBBC95225504BFEC6B@I2KM11-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
To: <public-xsd-databinding@w3.org>

now available, here:
http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/6/8/F2F-databinding-minutes.html

and below for tracker's searching:


                  XML Schema Patterns for Databinding WG F2F

31st July - 1st August 2006

BT Westside, Hertfordshire, England, UK

   [2]Agenda

Attendees

   Present
          Jon Calladine (BT)
          George Cowe (Origo)
          Paul Downey (BT)
          Otu Ekanem (BT)
          Yves Lafon (W3C)

   Regrets
          Ajith Ranabahu (WSO2)
          Priscilla Walmsley (W3C Invited Expert)
          Scott Wood (NACS)

   Chair
          pauld

   Scribe
          pauld

Contents

     * [3]Monday
         1. [4]Administrivia
         2. [5]How We Work
         3. [6]Workshop
       [7]Tuesday
         1. [8]Processing Issues List
         2. [9]ISSUE-24: Multi-dimensional arrays
         3. [10]ISSUE-43: ref and type qname values
         4. [11]Basic and Advanced Patterns detection
         5. [12]ISSUE-23: Mixed Content
         6. [13]ISSUE-56: string with min/max length facets
         7. [14]ISSUE-37: more than one way to express null, empty or
            missing content
         8. [15]ISSUE-14: xs:default
         9. [16]ISSUE-17: durations
        10. [17]ISSUE-5: Open enumeration type
        11. [18]ISSUE-18: Schema Authoring Styles
        12. [19]ISSUE-4: Collection of Databinding Impementations
        13. [20]ISSUE-8: constraining numerical types with patterns
        14. [21]ISSUE-9: Support for xs:union
        15. [22]ISSUE-13: PSVI features
        16. [23]ISSUE-29: what to do with what to do with uncommon data
            structures in programming languages
        17. [24]ISSUE-33: xs:choice a Basic Pattern?
        18. [25]ISSUE-30: more distinct list of data structures
        19. [26]ISSUE-11: Use case submissions to the test suite
        20. [27]ISSUE-10: Mapping Element and Type names
        21. [28]ISSUE-19: advice against 'all'
        22. [29]ISSUE-57: xs:include
        23. [30]ISSUE-51: attribute and element name clashes
        24. [31]ISSUE-52: stable URIs for patterns
        25. [32]ISSUE-63: is the order of a repeated element significant?
        26. [33]ISSUE-22: Bare Vectors
        27. [34]ISSUE-28: what to do if the programming language does not
            fully support a data structure
        28. [35]ISSUE-31: fixed value attributes
        29. [36]ISSUE-35: Design Considerations as Warnings
        30. [37]ISSUE-36: Tool selection for testing of basic pattern
            assertions
        31. [38]ISSUE-41: annotation and documentation elements as basic
            patterns
        32. [39]ISSUE-21: Inheritance of Collections
        33. [40]ISSUE-67: using xsi:type to assert Type Substitution
        34. [41]ISSUE-49: is anySimpleType a Basic Patterns type?
        35. [42]Schedule
     * [43]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________________

Administrivia

   minutes for [44]2006-07-25, [45]2006-07-18 and [46]2006-07-04
   teleconferences approved

How We Work

   discussion of how to generate specs from [47]examples.xml and
   [48]patterns.xml

   simplification step is to ensure for each pattern xml:id there is a
   corresponding example xml:id

   text kept in another [49]explanations.xml documment in which
   explanations may be picked out by the pattern xml:id or a group
   xml:id.

   patterns.xml will include an optional groupId attribute, e.g.
   "predefinedTypes"

   boilerplate introduction, references etc to be put in the XSLT which
   generates the spec from patterns.xml, examples.xml and description.xml

   need not(@targetNamespace)

   examples in examples.xml which don't currently match patterns.xml ids,
   eg "Beatle" should review and fix

   gcowe: when detecting patterns in a schema, not always clear where the
   patterns are being used. issuing the element or complex type name
   would be useful

   pauld: is this something we need to deliver? sounds like a very nice
   feature.

   gcowe: will investigate

   [50]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/patterns/

   paul demonstrates our workflow, patterns, schematron, examples,
   running SOAP4r toolkit:

   [51]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/toolkits/

   yves: fine-grained patterns may not flush out all the issues

   pauld: we could build a complete basic.xsd with a complete instance
   document for CR

Workshop

   Working group breaks out: Paul, George and Jon write patterns and
   examples; Yves writes the xmlspec generation; Paul and Otu work on
   test harness for toolkits.

ISSUE-24: Multi-dimensional arrays

   jonc: very common pattern

   pauld: agrees, but isn't this just two collections composed?
   ... we have to write XPaths to follow the type=".." value, possibly
   jumping namespaces, a problem we haven't solved

   jonc: examples should include this pattern, if toolkits fail we can
   split it into a special case

   pauld: cool .. but ..
   ... we decided yesterday to make example ids match pattern ids, let's
   add an optional @pattern to examples for this case

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-24 with no action, covered by other patterns

ISSUE-43: ref and type qname values

   pauld: we've had enough pain with this to *know* it's advanced

   working group authors example ElementTypeDefaultNamespace with pattern
   not(contains(//xs:element/@type, ':'))

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-43 as an advanced pattern

Basic and Advanced Patterns detection

   pauld: we seem to need to be able to detect advanced patterns to
   ensure a schema is really basic
   ... is this an issue?

   it's not a problem with the tool, but what about our specs?

   yves: are we confident this subset isn't too small?

   pauld: slightly different problem, but we are submitting patterns
   important to us for basic which we know to work well
   ... advanced is where we do more work to see what is in common use
   ... BT would like to use vertical schemas in Web services, but looking
   to advanced to help that. Basic is a constrained vocabulary of useful
   stuff for authors working with today's tools.
   ... I think we're mostly there.

   discussion .. issue is that the spec doesn't currently describe
   behaviour around missing targetNamespace, elementFormDefault, ':' in
   @types etc

   we need MUST text in Basic document to flag these patterns are
   required. will flag such patterns as "editorial" and check we have
   text by hand

ISSUE-23: Mixed Content

   Aspirational and in common use, but known not to work now.

   RESOLUTION: closed ISSUE-23 as an advanced pattern

ISSUE-56: string with min/max length facets

   working group builds examples and xpaths

ISSUE-37: more than one way to express null, empty or missing content

   pauld: like to close this issue as there is no obvious concensus to be
   had. Let's just publish the patterns and not tell people how to think
   about them.

   jonc: having spent a lot of time thinking about this and trying to
   push it forward, I have to reluctantly agree

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-37 with no action

ISSUE-14: xs:default

   no objections to moving this to "advanced"

   won't close this as it may yet not be accepted

ISSUE-17: durations

   no objections to moving this to "advanced"

   again, won't close this as it may yet not be accepted

ISSUE-5: Open enumeration type

   union is rejected by a number of tools, moved to "advanced"

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-5 accepted as an advanced pattern

ISSUE-18: Schema Authoring Styles

   this issue is too generalised. People should submit concrete patterns
   to be included in the spec. No russian doll, etc patterns have been
   submitted for basic.

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-18 with no action

ISSUE-4: Collection of Databinding Impementations

   pauld: this is just business as usual, we'll list the tools we test
   against in our report, work being collected here:
   [52]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/toolkits/

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-4 with no action, business as usual

ISSUE-8: constraining numerical types with patterns

   jonc: goes into what does a good experience mean
   ... expect tools to generate code, but not validate against schema in
   many cases

   pauld: not sure tools will generate code, even
   ... what about a pattern which says 0000001

   jonc: depends upon the constraints we put into our examples

   pauld: think we need some experience here

   jonc: Design Consideration?

   pauld: that's what MSMQ suggested in Nice
   ... is anyone pushing to have this "Basic"?

   gcowe: we use a postcode pattern, we don't expect tools to bail

   pauld: seen an email pattern, scary
   ... still lost
   ... problem is validation
   ... is it good enough for a tool to ignore the pattern?
   ... propose we close this issue as Basic (subject to discovering tools
   which reject such schemas) and add a Design Consideration to highlight
   that tools are unlikely to validate received content or be constrained
   on lexical representations they output

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-8 with pauld's proposal

ISSUE-9: Support for xs:union

   pauld: most tools barf at the generation stage
   ... do we have patterns and examples for xs:union?

   working group watches pauld painfully edit "AlternateElement" example
   for xs:union

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-9 as an advanced pattern

ISSUE-13: PSVI features

   pauld: see this as an interesting lead towards difficult patterns
   ... we have xs:default as a separate issue, other concrete patterns
   can be captured similarly as separate ISSUES

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-13 with no action

ISSUE-29: what to do with what to do with uncommon data structures in
programming languages

   pauld: I think issues of how programming languages implement bindings,
   or represent data structures peculiar to a particular environment is
   out of scope

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-29 with no action

ISSUE-33: xs:choice a Basic Pattern?

   pauld: seems like Axis 1.3 bounces it but 1.4 creates same class as
   for a sequence, this seems ok to me

   jonc: worries me, but not sure what more they can do in Java

   gcowe: what about a choice with different types?

   pauld: add it as an example, not sure it's a different pattern
   ... same type seems like the special case

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-33 as an advanced pattern

ISSUE-30: more distinct list of data structures

   gcowe: related to ISSUE-25?

   yves: always an issue for meta-data

   pauld: propose we accept requests to add specific data structures
   rather than actively go out to harvest more.

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-30 with no action

ISSUE-11: Use case submissions to the test suite

   jonc: process issue which has been overtaken by events

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-11 with no action

ISSUE-10: Mapping Element and Type names

   pauld:
   [53]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/edcopy/testsuite/documents/n
   ames/names.xsd
   ... need to incorporate this into our tests

   <scribe> ACTION: pdowney to incorporate names tests into our matrix
   report [recorded in
   [54]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-54 - Incorporate names tests into our matrix
   report [on Paul Downey - due 2006-08-08].

ISSUE-19: advice against 'all'

   jonc: our experiences using 'all' with tools hasn't been good

   pauld: advice in the issue is against writing invalid schemas, out of
   scope
   ... do we punt this to "advanced" or go the extra mile testing with
   tools?
   ... does anyone care enough about all for basic patterns?

   gcowe: we don't use it

   pauld: we're avoiding it

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-19 with 'all' as an advanced pattern

   pauld: expect comments on that!

ISSUE-57: xs:include

   pauld: need a pattern and an example

ISSUE-51: attribute and element name clashes

   pauld: looks very much like an advanced pattern to me
   ... detecting with XPath simple, except when anyAttibute, or exteded
   types come into play

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-51 as an advanced pattern

ISSUE-52: stable URIs for patterns

   pauld: we have
   [55]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/patterns/6/05/DurationGlobal
   Element
   [56]http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/databinding/examples/6/05/DurationGlobal
   Element etc

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-51 with WG based URIs

ISSUE-63: is the order of a repeated element significant?

   discussion, WG looks at the schema spec, then XML 1.0 spec.

   pauld: this is just XML, order of elements is significant, do we need
   to clarify?

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-63 with no action

ISSUE-22: Bare Vectors

   pauld: has anyone seen problems with this in tools

   jonc: we had issues in the past

   pauld: in the days of encoding ..

   jonc: more a style thing now

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-22 as a Basic pattern

ISSUE-28: what to do if the programming language does not fully support a
data structure

   pauld: this is Vladislav accurately predicting our rat-holes
   ... canonical example is xs:Integer which in .NET is a C# String type
   ... or xs:choice in Java appearing as a class with all the properties
   available
   ... which i think is better than presenting DOM
   ... 'better' being a loaded word

   jonc: if we just look at the wire, we don't care
   ... sufficient that the toolkit can consume WSDL

   pauld: doesn't barf and allows a programmer to access and send the
   data seems good enough

   jonc: that yardstick helps us make progress, +1

   pauld: we use, but don't define the term "better user experience of
   tools"
   .. and that's OK

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-28 with no action

ISSUE-31: fixed value attributes

   we need more examples

ISSUE-35: Design Considerations as Warnings

   pauld: can XPath capture all our design considerations, eg. naming of
   elements and types?
   ... do we need to provide tooling to capture things which go beyond
   "patterns"
   ... do we need to close this issue to make progress?

   jonc: what design considerations do we have?

   pauld: we have naming of types, that seems to be it

   moved issue to testsuite deliverable

ISSUE-36: Tool selection for testing of basic pattern assertions

   pauld: we use what tools are important and available to WG members,
   and are providing a framework so others can submit test reports

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-36 with no action

ISSUE-41: annotation and documentation elements as basic patterns

   RESOLUTION: close ISSUE-41 as a basic pattern

ISSUE-21: Inheritance of Collections

   <scribe> ACTION: pdowney to submit concrete pattern for ISSUE-21
   [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-55 - Submit concrete pattern for ISSUE-21
   [on Paul Downey - due 2006-08-08].

ISSUE-67: using xsi:type to assert Type Substitution

   pauld: personal adversion to xsi:type, it ain't XML :-)

   gcowe: will build testcases

ISSUE-49: is anySimpleType a Basic Patterns type?

   pauld: spoke to Priscilla about this, she may have new (well old)
   information.
   ... in the meantime some kits barf

   moved to Advanced

Schedule

   chair: want to move to Last Call working draft ASAP.

   we need time to incorporate patterns, build examples and test them off

   <scribe> ACTION: ylafon to book 2 hour slot for 8th August telcon
   [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-56 - Book 2 hour slot for 8th August telcon
   [on Yves Lafon - due 2006-08-08].

   pauld: want to organise an interoperability event, ideally East Coast
   USA, end of November. Failing that in January. Boston in January.
   Brrr!

   <scribe> ACTION: ylafon to talk with the team about hosting an
   interoperability event [recorded in
   [59]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action04]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-57 - Talk with the team about hosting an
   interoperability event [on Yves Lafon - due 2006-08-08].

   suggestion next F2F in Edinburgh, last week September

   ADJOURNED

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: pdowney to incorporate names tests into our matrix
   report [recorded in
   [60]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: pdowney to submit concrete pattern for ISSUE-21
   [recorded in
   [61]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: ylafon to book 2 hour slot for 8th August telcon
   [recorded in
   [62]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: ylafon to talk with the team about hosting an
   interoperability event [recorded in
   [63]http://www.w3.org/2006/08/01-databinding-minutes.html#action04]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [64]scribe.perl version 1.127
    ([65]CVS log)
    $Date: 2006/08/01 18:33:29 $

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