RE: Open systems / Freedom ( was RE: The Web as an Application)

Hi David,

Sorry, pushed the wrong button.

I've copied earlier messages to the list.

> Your reference to "schema" is what makes your message 
> confusing as schema are related to validity not well 
> formedness. 

I realize that XML can not be said to have a "schema", in the
XML Schema, DTD, RelaxNG sense of the word.
  
The application/xml media type, which is how XML is identified
_on the web_, does not imply any schema, it only implies that
the message has angle brackets, quoted attributes, etc.  So,
I am saying that the set of rules which constitute a "well-formed"
XML message are the "schema" of that message.  "Well-formed" is
possibly another term for expressing "can be processed by a program 
which understands the rules of application/xml".  There is
an historical note about how the term well-formed came about in
Jon Bosak's XML 2006 keynote [1].  If the designers of XML had
intended that the xml: namespace was a "no fly zone", XML Processors
would reject content in that namespace which they do not understand.

To return to the original question.

> > If a community came up with an extension to the xml namespace that 
> > actually was useful and used
> No. Any suggested extensions should be in "our own" 
> namespaces. That is the model on which namespaces work, you avoid 
> clashes by not trampling in someone else's space.

The designers of XML in fact left room for change to the xml: namespace [2]:

"The XML Core Working Group reserves the right to bring additional names from this namespace into active use by providing definitions for them in new specifications or subsequent editions of existing specifications. "

and

"All changes to the use of this namespace will be achieved by the publication of documents governed by the W3C Process."

I see the Community Group process as part of the W3C process.  I would like to think
that Jon Bosak might agree [1]:


"There's a reason that XML was originally called "SGML for the web." A large part of the
motivation for creating XML was to further the vision of pioneers like Doug Engelbart, Ted
Nelson, Tim Berners-Lee, and Yuri Rubinsky. Somewhere in attempting to realize this vision
we've gotten hung up in implementing the very first step along the way. We've wandered off into
the weeds of commercialization and forgotten that the web we've got is the most primitive form of
hypertext that could be imagined - which is why it works, and I don't want to deny that."


Regards,
Peter


[1] http://www.ibiblio.org/bosak/pres/0612xml/xml2006-keynote.pdf
[2] http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Carlisle [mailto:davidc@nag.co.uk] 
> Sent: September 20, 2013 09:26
> To: Rushforth, Peter
> Subject: Re: Open systems / Freedom ( was RE: The Web as an 
> Application)
> 
> On 20/09/2013 12:58, Rushforth, Peter wrote:
> > We seem to be off list at the moment, your call if you want 
> to go back 
> > on.
> 
> Yes (your message was just to me, so I replied the same way, 
> feel free to drop this and re=start on list).
> 
> Your reference to "schema" is what makes your message 
> confusing as schema are related to validity not well 
> formedness. True xml:href="zz"
> is well formed, but so is href="zz". Neither of them are 
> valid unless the schema for the current document allows them. 
> Failure to be valid might not matter or might be a fatal 
> error depending on the parser options being used.
> 
> 
> So xml:href has no advantages (and many disadvantages) over 
> just simple href. (Most of the disadvantages relate to 
> complicating the story with html, which may not be of 
> importance in general XML but is surely important _on the web_).
> 
> 
> David
> 
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Received on Monday, 23 September 2013 13:22:59 UTC