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XProc Minutes 4 Oct 2012

From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 10:21:08 -0500
To: public-xml-processing-model-wg@w3.org
Message-ID: <m2k3v6xnyz.fsf@nwalsh.com>
See http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes

[1]W3C

                                   - DRAFT -

                            XML Processing Model WG

04 Oct 2012

   [2]Agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

Attendees

   Present
           Norm, Henry, Alex, Jim, Murray, Vojtech

   Regrets

   Chair
           Norm

   Scribe
           Norm

Contents

     * [4]Topics

         1. [5]Accept this agenda?
         2. [6]Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
         3. [7]Next meeting: telcon 11 Oct
         4. [8]Review of action items
         5. [9]Short list of items for V.next
         6. [10]Plan for use-cases/requirements document
         7. [11]Other documents to publish?
         8. [12]New comments on the comments list
         9. [13]Any other business?

     * [14]Summary of Action Items

   --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Accept this agenda?

   -> [15]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-agenda

   Accepted

  Accept minutes from the previous meeting?

   -> [16]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/09/06-minutes

   Accepted.

  Next meeting: telcon 11 Oct

   Alex gives regrets.

  Review of action items

   A-210-01: Completed

   No other progress reported.

  Short list of items for V.next

   Norm gives brief review of email thread.

   Alex: Are we still XProc if we allow non-XML through the pipeline.

   Norm: It doesn't worry me.

   Henry: In terms of a cost-benefit analysis in terms of update, I have a
   niggling worry that we've already seen that getting your head around XProc
   is a barrier to adoption. If we add this additional dimension of
   complexity, it's going to get even harder.
   ... There's going to be another set of choices that need to be made
   everytime you want to do something.

   Norm: I think you can run that argument the other way too.
   ... Most people will eventually want to do something with non-XML so I
   think that complexity is also a barrier to entry.

   Alex: In the case of XSLT, you can access the resources but you can't call
   templates on them.
   ... One of my concerns in XProc is that even though I want to be able to
   process non-XML things, if we start passing non-XML around then all sorts
   of things might not work at runtime.
   ... We have to define expected behavior for non-XML at a lot of different
   points in the pipeline.
   ... It also makes us more of a data flow language and the "X" is just
   there for historical reasons.
   ... I think we need to produce use cases for non-XML documents.

   Norm: Vojtech, can you send some mail summarizing some use cases?

   Vojtech: It's all in the XML Prague paper. One use cases was http-request
   and JSON. Another was zip/unzip in the pipeline.
   ... I think there was one more too.
   ... Steps that produce non-XML output could produce the data on an output
   port and then you could do other things with them.

   Norm: Formatting a PDF and sending it back as a result witout writing it
   to disk would be a use case.

   Vojtech: I think it's really about the boundaries. It's nice if non-XML
   can flow through the pipeline, it makes things simpler. You don't have to
   pass around all these URI references to files. It's the very beginning of
   the pipeline where you need to read some non-XML or at the end if you want
   to produce non-XML.

   Alex: I'm thinking of simple examples where I want to produce some non-XML
   and send it via http-request. Right now we don't have a good way to model
   that.
   ... Similarly, there's an issue of output. There's a distinction between
   the edges of the pipeline and inside the pipeline.
   ... It's not necessarily always the data that's flowing in between.

   Jim: Developers are struggling because we have a lot of different data
   models. Now we're trying to figure out how we're going to manage all this
   different data. Are you suggesting we should redefine our internal data
   model? Extending XML to include other stuff? Or do we want to keep it on
   the perimeter. We seem to be in a state of flux.
   ... People can now have binaries and all sorts of data living very close
   together. The further away the data is in an operational infrastructure
   sense, the longer it takes to do analysis on it.
   ... I think there might be some utility to using XProc in hadoop.

   Alex: I'm not sure we're talking about mixing data models. The proposal
   from Vojtech is about dealing with media-type-ness.
   ... If you have an XML media type, you get an XDM; for non-XML you get a
   handle to a binary blob.

   Vojtech: Maybe it can be even simpler, maybe you get non-XML data in a
   context where you expect XML, then maybe what you see is an empty
   document. But you have the media type so you can always tell.
   ... Then you don't have to extend the data model.
   ... You could just say that an XML infoset view on the data that flows in
   the pipeline produces XML for XML media types and an empty document for
   non-XML media types.

   Norm: That seems about what I was thinking about.

   Vojtech: Instead of changing XDM we should take a simple, pragmatic
   approach.
   ... It's not full support for non-XML, it's stilly mainly an XML
   processing language, it just makes things easier if you get non-XML.

  Plan for use-cases/requirements document

   Norm: I wonder if we should start with a more focused use
   cases/requirements document

   Jim: I volunteer to help edit the document.

   Norm: I suggest we start with a new document that identifies a small
   number of requirements that we're considering for V.next
   ... Then we try to add use cases to that.

   Jim: Do we have a latest link for the current doc?

   -> [17]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langreq-v2.html

   Norm: Any chance we could have that skeleton done by next Monday/Tuesday.

   Jim: Yes, I think so.

   Alex: I'm not sure what I can do between now and then.

  Other documents to publish?

   Norm: Alex, you had another document in mind, yes?

   Alex: Yes, it might be good to publish a note with the 1.0 solutions.
   ... It would be good to let everyone see how we solved the 1.0 use cases.

   <jfuller> agree with Alex approach

   Norm: Can you put a first draft of that together?

   <scribe> ACTION: A-220-01: Alex to produce a first draft of a "XProc 1.0
   Solutions" note. [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx1]

   Norm: I'm on the hook for a note about OS operations; Jim, you're still on
   the hook for zip/unzip.
   ... Are there any other documents we think it would be beneficial to
   publish?

  New comments on the comments list

   Norm: We need to go through and review these, but I'm not sure what the
   best strategy is
   ... Has anyone looked at them?

   Vojtech: There are two types of remarks: contradictions in our prose and
   gray areas; the others are some interesting things that I didn't notice
   when I was implementing certain features.
   ... There was this question about p:wrap-sequence and the group-adjacent
   option for example. We don't define what "the same" means.
   ... It's a clear whole in the spec.

   Jim: He's got some simpler questions, like can we add XProc as a product
   to bugzilla.

   <scribe> ACTION: A-220-02: Norm to ask Liam how to get XProc added to
   bugzilla [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action01]

   <jfuller>
   [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/0000.html

   <jfuller>
   [21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/

   Norm: July 0000 does look easy to fix. Remove "is in no namespace" from
   the second sentence.

   Vojtech: No, I don't think that's the fix.
   ... In the first sentence we say it can be in any namespace but the second
   says it can't be in the XProc namespace

   <jfuller> +1 to that

   <scribe> ACTION: A-220-03: Norm to make an erratum for July 0000 message.
   [recorded in [22]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx2]

   ->
   [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/0002.html

   Vojtech: We say that outputs of p:choose come from the subpipeline, but
   p:when isn't in the subpipeline.

   Norm: I think we finesse the p:when case, but I'll have to take a closer
   look.

   Vojtech: Basically, p:when is not a step.

   <scribe> ACTION: A-220-04: Vojtech to investigate July 0002 and formulate
   an erratum to address it [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx3]

   <alexmilowski> Looks like we have another implementor.

   ->
   [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/0003.html

   <scribe> ACTION: A-220-05: Jim to investigate July 0004 and formulate an
   erratum to address it [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action02]

   ->
   [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/0004.html

   <scribe> ACTION: A-220-06: Vojtech to investigate July 0003 and formulate
   an erratum to address it [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action03]

   ->
   [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/0005.html

   <scribe> ACTION: A-220-07: Norm to investigate July 0005 and formulate an
   erratum to address it [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action04]

  Any other business?

   Vojtech: I asked for approval to attend TPAC and I did not get it.

   Norm: If you can hang out on IRC, we'll try to keep you in the loop
   ... We can also try skype, google hangout, etc.

   Jim: Do we have any outstanding Processor Profiles actions?

   Norm: Yes, we need to get to them.

   At TPAC: Norm, Jim, Henry, Mohamed, ...

   Vojtech: I'll ask about Cornelia.

   Adjourned.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: A-220-01: Alex to produce a first draft of a "XProc 1.0
   Solutions" note. [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx1]
   [NEW] ACTION: A-220-02: Norm to ask Liam how to get XProc added to
   bugzilla [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: A-220-03: Norm to make an erratum for July 0000 message.
   [recorded in [33]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx2]
   [NEW] ACTION: A-220-04: Vojtech to investigate July 0002 and formulate an
   erratum to address it [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx3]
   [NEW] ACTION: A-220-05: Jim to investigate July 0004 and formulate an
   erratum to address it [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: A-220-06: Vojtech to investigate July 0003 and formulate an
   erratum to address it [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: A-220-07: Norm to investigate July 0005 and formulate an
   erratum to address it [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action04]

   [End of minutes]

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    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [38]scribe.perl version 1.137 ([39]CVS
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    $Date: 2012/10/04 15:20:13 $

References

   1. http://www.w3.org/
   2. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-agenda
   3. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-irc
   4. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes#agenda
   5. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes#item01
   6. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes#item02
   7. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes#item03
   8. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes#item04
   9. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes#item05
  10. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes#item06
  11. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes#item07
  12. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes#item08
  13. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes#item09
  14. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-minutes#ActionSummary
  15. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/10/04-agenda
  16. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/09/06-minutes
  17. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langreq-v2.html
  18. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx1
  19. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action01
  20. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/0000.html
  21. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/
  22. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx2
  23. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/0002.html
  24. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx3
  25. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/0003.html
  26. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action02
  27. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/0004.html
  28. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action03
  29. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2012Jul/0005.html
  30. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action04
  31. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx1
  32. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action01
  33. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx2
  34. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#actionx3
  35. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action02
  36. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action03
  37. http://www.w3.org/2012/10/04-xproc-minutes.html#action04
  38. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  39. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Received on Thursday, 4 October 2012 15:21:46 GMT

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