W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-xml-processing-model-wg@w3.org > May 2012

XProc Minutes 24 May 2012

From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 13:54:38 -0400
To: public-xml-processing-model-wg@w3.org
Message-ID: <m2mx4wjgdd.fsf@nwalsh.com>
See http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes

[1]W3C

                                   - DRAFT -

                            XML Processing Model WG

Meeting 215, 24 May 2012

   [2]Agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

Attendees

   Present
           Jim, Norm, Vojtech, Alex, Cornelia, Henry, Murray

   Regrets

   Chair
           Norm

   Scribe
           Norm

Contents

     * [4]Topics

         1. [5]Accept this agenda?
         2. [6]Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
         3. [7]Next meeting: telcon, 31 May 2012
         4. [8]Review of action items
         5. [9]Sync/catchup/agenda review
         6. [10]Updating schemas and library.xpl
         7. [11]Naming of compound steps
         8. [12]Extending p:log
         9. [13]Streaming and parallel processing
        10. [14]Use case and requirements
        11. [15]Any other business?

     * [16]Summary of Action Items

   --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Accept this agenda?

   -> [17]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-agenda

   Accepted.

  Accept minutes from the previous meeting?

   -> [18]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/26-minutes

   Accepted.

  Next meeting: telcon, 31 May 2012

   Vojtech gives regrets for two weeks.

  Review of action items

   Some discussion of the charter. It's now out for AC vote.

   <Liam> [note, it was changed very slightly since Norm saw it, but I think
   not significantly (e.g. meeting frequency clarified), but comments can be
   made in the AC review.]

   A-206-02: Continued

   A-207-02: Completed, gone out to AC for review

   A-209-01: Continued

   A-210-01: Continued

   A-210-02: Continued

   A-210-03: Continued

   A-210-04: Continued

   A-211-01: Continued

   A-213-01: Completed

   A-213-02: Completed

   A-213-03: Completed

   A-213-04: is 5.27, still open on Alex.

   A-213-05: Completed

   A-213-06: Completed

   A-213-07: Completed

   A-213-08: Completed

   A-214-01: Completed

   A-214-02: Completed

   Norm: Murray, I assume you'll insert them in the document.

   Murray: Yes, of course.

  Sync/catchup/agenda review

   Norm: Anyone have anything to add?

   Cornelia: I was able to find the editor's draft of the use
   cases/requirements but only in email?

   Norm: Alex, is it checked in somewhere?

   <scribe> ACTION: Norm to make sure everyone knows the stable URI for the
   use cases/requirements document [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action01]

   A-215-01

   Henry: Once it's anywhere under the XProc CVS, it's available.

   Murray: Do you want me to mail a draft?

   Norm: No, let's get it checked in and send out the pointer to the stable
   pointer.

   Cornelia: There were use cases and requirements marked as satisified, are
   those old ones?

   Murray: The use cases/requirements document is the 1.0 version
   supplemented with original material.
   ... What we've been doing is improving those use cases.
   ... And assuring ourselves that we've satisfied them.

   <jfuller> link to old use case document

   <jfuller> [20]http://www.w3.org/TR/xproc-requirements/

   Murray: But we're still detailing them.

   Cornelia: With the current version of XProc?

   Murray: Yes.

   Norm attempts to explain the motivation for repeating the use cases: to
   provide real pipelines and to look at how they might be simplified for
   V.next.

   Murray: We've also got DAISY requirements that we can incorporate in
   support of the work we've done.

  Updating schemas and library.xpl

   Norm describes the problem of having "out-of-date" schemas and XPL wrt the
   new template note.

   Henry: We should have put those documents in date space at publication
   time. Then we could have a dated version that never changes and an undated
   version that you can keep up-to-date.

   <scribe> ACTION: Henry to stage the dated and undated versions of updated
   schemas and library.xpl [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action02]

  Naming of compound steps

   Norm: Mohamed summarizes the issue here:

   ->
   [22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2012May/0024.html

   Norm: The original problem was that the XSD for p:catch doesn't allow a
   name attribute, but it must be allowed to have one.

   <MoZ> sure, but do we allow to have one on p:when and p:otherwise

   <scribe> ACTION: Norm to clarify with Mohamed to see if he thinks there's
   really a problem here. [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action03]

   Norm: Does anyone disagree that the XSD for XProc has bug?

   None heard

   <MoZ> Basically my proposal is to fix the XSD

   <scribe> ACTION: Henry to fix the bug where p:catch doesn't allow a name
   in the XSD. [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action04]

   <MoZ> but the real question is whether we need to allow name on p:when and
   p:otherwise

   MoZ, let's take that offline.

   <MoZ> Norm, fine

  Extending p:log

   ->
   [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2012May/0025.html

   Norm summarizes.

   <jfuller> sounds good to me

   Murray: What about variables?

   Norm: I think Mohamed suggested we use a template style.

   Vojtech: But how can that work? Where would you set the parameters?

   Norm: Yeah. Maybe it doesn't work.

   Vojtech: Why can't we just use ordinary XPath expressions?

   Norm: So maybe you use the template style but you can't have any variable
   references because there are no parameters

   Murray: I guess I don't understand how this template thing would work.

   <scribe> ACTION: Norm to consider the template idea and provide an example
   of how that might look [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action05]

   Alex: I think the next thing you do with this thing would be to come up
   with some motivating examples.
   ... One of the things I have to do in other ways is to figure out what
   values variables have. It's not just the document, it's also the other
   bits that are coming into the step.

   Vojtech: I see two situations. If you put p:log in p:group then you can
   have variables or options that are inscope and you could say that those
   are visible in the log.
   ... But on the top-level, there's probably no way to refer to variables.
   ... Though maybe pipeline options.

   Alex: I'm assuimg there are limitations. You don't want to get into
   circularity.
   ... I think we need a short list at least of things that we expect to
   work.

   Henry: Can I come back on this question of template?
   ... These aren't common, garden variety steps. These are names in p:; we
   can make their content be evaluated in any context we choose.
   ... So I don't see any a priori reason why we can't say that p:assert with
   a body is effectively shorthand for a p:template with a connection to a
   template.
   ... I don't think the workaround Mohamed suggested is necessary, we can
   define the body to be evaluated as we wish.

   Vojtech: I think it needs to be consistent with AVTs.

   Alex: Are we going to allow markup, or just text?

   Norm: The xsl:message instruction allows markup and that's handy every now
   and then. I might be inclined to allow markup.

   <alexmilowski> (Veronika cries about markup … does her vote count?)

   Norm: I think the 90% case is probably just text, but that's not a reason
   to forbid markup.

   Henry: I agree.

   Alex: We will need to consider the document element case for plain text.

   Murray: Somewhere in the requirements document, there's a list of
   variables that are available somehow to the XProc engine.
   ... Would someone go through that list and verify it?

   <scribe> ACTION: Norm to review the list of "variables" in the use
   cases/requirements and see if it's correct. [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action06]

   Murray: It would be useful to me to see a simple pipeline with several
   levels showing what the values of variables are at the different levels.

   Norm: There's probably one of those in the test suite because we had to
   test scoping.

   <scribe> ACTION: Norm to point Murray to the scoping tests in the test
   suite. [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action07]

  Streaming and parallel processing

   Jim: I think streaming and parallel processing are out of scope.

   Alex: How so?

   Jim: In my opinion, they're just to big and hard for V.next.

   Alex: I'm curious if there's low-hanging fruit that we could do to enable
   or guarantee that we can create streaming processors.
   ... We have one member who's worked on this, I don't know what else might
   have been done.
   ... I think we need to keep this around in order to make sure we don't
   violate our own requirements.

   Jim: I think I'd have to review those requirements.

   Alex: I think we should at least give Mohamed and others a chance to tell
   us if there's low-hanging fruit.

   Murray: I think the point of this exercise is allow anyone with
   streaming/pp requirements to step up and present them.
   ... Then we can document those requirements for the future.

   Norm mumbles something about dependency analysis.

   Norm: I guess if no one else has comments now, we'll leave this and see
   what comes back in terms of low-hanging fruit.

   Henry: I'm largely in agreement that it's out-of-scope, but the
   observation that "you just made it impossible to stream in this case and
   you didn't have to" is always in order.

   Murray: There's that and there's also documenting things. If you're
   intending to build a streaming or parallel process, then watch out for
   these things.

   Alex: One path forward wrt that, as a side task, would be to enumerate
   some examples of things in XProc that should stream and for what reason.
   ... I think that would be a note or something.

   Norm observes that his own plans for streaming will supply some of those
   answers. Someday.

  Use case and requirements

   Alex: The quick question I have is the organization of the document. New
   material vs. the old document?
   ... When you see this draft, there's the original structure of the
   requirements document and then there's a bunch of stuff in the appendixes.
   ... What's the right organization?

   Norm: I think that's the editor's job.

   :-)

   Alex: Do we want to keep the old structure, or have a new document?

   Murray: My goal was to gather things in the appendixes for now so that
   everything is in one place.
   ... Eventually, sometime this summer, I was hoping we'd be able to migrate
   stuff from the appendixes into the body of the document.
   ... We'd leave all the existing things in place and add more.
   ... This would be a living/growing document that would guide the
   development of XProc in the future.

   Norm: That sounds fine to me.

   Murray: Earlier, we were talking about information available for
   debugging. There are two sections: F.3.4 and F.5.12.
   ... Under F.3.4, there's a list of steps that provide information.
   ... I'd like to see a useful pipeline that uses those steps and functions
   that I can plop into the document.

   Norm: I'd draw a distinction between things like pos:env and
   p:step-available.

   Murray: I don't disagree that they're different, I just need to see a
   pipeline that delivers all that information.
   ... Part of the purpose of seeing such a pipeline is to see what's
   missing.

   <scribe> ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline that summarizes the environment
   in which a pipeline runs to the extent possible. [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action08]

  Any other business?

   None heard.

   Adjourned.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Henry to fix the bug where p:catch doesn't allow a name in
   the XSD. [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: Henry to stage the dated and undated versions of updated
   schemas and library.xpl [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Norm to clarify with Mohamed to see if he thinks there's
   really a problem here. [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Norm to consider the template idea and provide an example of
   how that might look [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: Norm to make sure everyone knows the stable URI for the use
   cases/requirements document [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: Norm to point Murray to the scoping tests in the test suite.
   [recorded in [35]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action07]
   [NEW] ACTION: Norm to review the list of "variables" in the use
   cases/requirements and see if it's correct. [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action06]
   [NEW] ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline that summarizes the environment in
   which a pipeline runs to the extent possible. [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action08]

   [End of minutes]

   --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [38]scribe.perl version 1.136 ([39]CVS
    log)
    $Date: 2012/05/25 17:52:58 $

References

   1. http://www.w3.org/
   2. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-agenda
   3. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-irc
   4. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#agenda
   5. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#item01
   6. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#item02
   7. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#item03
   8. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#item04
   9. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#item05
  10. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#item06
  11. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#item07
  12. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#item08
  13. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#item09
  14. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#item10
  15. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#item11
  16. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-minutes#ActionSummary
  17. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/05/24-agenda
  18. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/26-minutes
  19. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action01
  20. http://www.w3.org/TR/xproc-requirements/
  21. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action02
  22. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2012May/0024.html
  23. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action03
  24. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action04
  25. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2012May/0025.html
  26. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action05
  27. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action06
  28. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action07
  29. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action08
  30. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action04
  31. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action02
  32. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action03
  33. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action05
  34. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action01
  35. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action07
  36. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action06
  37. http://www.w3.org/2012/05/24-xproc-minutes.html#action08
  38. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  39. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Received on Friday, 25 May 2012 17:55:09 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Friday, 25 May 2012 17:55:10 GMT