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XProc Minutes 19 Apr 2012

From: Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 14:54:34 -0400
To: public-xml-processing-model-wg@w3.org
Message-ID: <m2bomno8lx.fsf@nwalsh.com>
See http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes

[1]W3C

                                   - DRAFT -

                            XML Processing Model WG

19 Apr 2012

   [2]Agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

Attendees

   Present
           Vojtech, Alex, Henry, Norm, Murray

   Regrets
           Cornelia, Jim

   Chair
           Norm

   Scribe
           Norm

Contents

     * [4]Topics

         1. [5]Accept this agenda?
         2. [6]Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
         3. [7]Next meeting: telcon, 26 April 2012
         4. [8]Review of open action items
         5. [9]Review of requirements and use cases
         6. [10]5.7 Extracting MathML
         7. [11]5.12 A Simple Transformation Service
         8. [12]5.13 Service Request/Response Handling on a Handheld
         9. [13]5.14 Interact with a Web Service
        10. [14]5.15 Parse and/or serialize RSS
        11. [15]5.16 XQuery and XSLT 2.0 Collections
        12. [16]5.17 An AJAX Server
        13. [17]5.18 Dynamic XQuery
        14. [18]5.19 Read/Write Non-XML File
        15. [19]5.20 Update/Insert Document in a Database
        16. [20]5.21-22 Content-dependent/configuration-dependent
            transformations
        17. [21]5.23 Response to XML-RPC request
        18. [22]5.24 Database import/ingestion
        19. [23]5.25 Metadata retrieval
        20. [24]5.26 Non-XML doument production
        21. [25]5.27 Integerate computational components
        22. [26]5.28 DSDL
        23. [27]5.29 Large document subtree iteration
        24. [28]5.31 Fallback of XSLT processor choice
        25. [29]5.32 No fallback for XQuery
        26. [30]Any other business

     * [31]Summary of Action Items

   --------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Accept this agenda?

   -> [32]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-agenda

   Norm was going to add the zip questions, but in Jim's absence...

   Accepted.

  Accept minutes from the previous meeting?

   -> [33]http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/12-minutes

   Accepted.

  Next meeting: telcon, 26 April 2012

   No regrets heard.

  Review of open action items

   <scribe> No progress reported on any actions #sadpanda

  Review of requirements and use cases

   ->
   [34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2012Apr/0024.html

   Norm: There's been some email; we could go there or if Murray, there's
   anything you're looking for...

   Murray: I'd like to walk through the use cases and see which, if any, are
   thought to be incomplete.

   Norm: Murray, lead on!

  5.7 Extracting MathML

   Alex: This is the one I'm going to write about, but haven't yet.

   <scribe> ACTION: Alex to write about 5.7, extracting MathML [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01]

  5.12 A Simple Transformation Service

   Alex: Depends on what we mean by persistence.

   <scribe> ACTION: Alex to write up a description of persistence for 5.12
   [recorded in [36]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02]

  5.13 Service Request/Response Handling on a Handheld

   Alex: That could be interpreted many different ways

   Vojtech: We can construct pipelines in the browser and submit them to the
   server, you could do that on a handheld.

   Norm: We could drop it.

   Alex: It's underspecified.

   Norm: We could satisfy the letter of this req. along the lines Vojtech
   decided, but it'd take half a day and we could do other things with that
   half day. Let's drop it.

   Alex: I agree.

   <scribe> ACTION: Murray to drop 5.13 [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03]

  5.14 Interact with a Web Service

   <scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.14 [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04]

  5.15 Parse and/or serialize RSS

   <scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.15 [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action05]

  5.16 XQuery and XSLT 2.0 Collections

   Alex: Can we do this in XSLT?

   Norm: I think you can.

   Alex: I think we'd need to make the "collection" step explicit.

   <scribe> ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.16 [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action06]

  5.17 An AJAX Server

   Vojtech: I think 5.17 and 5.12 are the same.

   <scribe> ACTION: Jim to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.17 [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action07]

  5.18 Dynamic XQuery

   <scribe> ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.18 [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action08]

  5.19 Read/Write Non-XML File

   Murray: We don't have a step to read non-XML.

   Alex; You did some work in this area, yes?

   Vojtech: Yes, but it's not version 1.0 compatible.

   Alex: I think that's ok.

   Vojtech: I can do this one, I can add a pointer to the paper

   Norm: I think this is a clear requirement for XProc V.next

   Alex: You could do this today with p:data and using XSLT to parse out the
   data.

   Norm: Yes, I think we should be able to do better in V.next

   Murray: I think we should not write ths up then, it's a V.next requirement

   <scribe> ACTION: Vojtech to send a pointer to his XML Prague paper to
   Murray [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action09]

  5.20 Update/Insert Document in a Database

   Some discussion of various approaches, EMC & MarkLogic included.

   Vojtech: There's nothing special about the pipelines, it's just behind the
   scenes a connection to a database.

   Alex: I thought about this with the MarkLogic steps. There's no reason why
   they wouldn't work with eXist.
   ... It's pretty generic.
   ... Would there be value in trying to have a standard way to connect at
   least to XML databases.

   Norm: This sounds to me like a requirement for a new atomic step or set of
   atomic steps.
   ... I worry about the details, but we can certainly put a stake in the
   ground and look at designing atomic steps.

   Murray: We should be able to design the steps, whether or not they'd be
   satisfactory is an open question.

   Henry: In the distant past with the Markup Engine, I ended up implementing
   a very simple gateway to a relational database. It turned out that there
   were a number of tasks we were exploring where you wanted to be able to
   look up an atomic item in a relational database.
   ... I think that's worth exploring. There are a bunch of existence proofs,
   whether there's a sweet spot is an open question.

  5.21-22 Content-dependent/configuration-dependent transformations

   Murray: They seem like they'd be easy.

   <scribe> ACTION: Vojtech to write pipelines to demontrate 5.21 and 5.22
   [recorded in [44]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action10]

  5.23 Response to XML-RPC request

   Norm: I think this duplicates 5.12 and 5.17

   Vojtech: Well, there's some conditionality in here. I can take a look.

   <scribe> ACTION: Vojtech to consider writing a pipeline for 5.23 [recorded
   in [45]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action11]

  5.24 Database import/ingestion

   Norm: Maybe we should combine 5.20 and 5.24 into a more wholistic
   requirement

  5.25 Metadata retrieval

   Discussion suggests that this is similar to 5.12, 5.17, etc.

   Alex: Maybe we need a more general: pipeline performs query and formats
   results.

  5.26 Non-XML doument production

   Murray: This is something we can do today.

   Alex: Well, sortof.
   ... I wonder if we want to combine this with the non-XML input example.

  5.27 Integerate computational components

   <scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.28 [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action12]

  5.28 DSDL

   <alexmilowski> Veronika cries about DSDL

   Norm: I think the salient issue here is whether we want to allow multiple
   numbers of inputs and outputs

   Alex: Do we have any other use case that has that feature requirmenet.

   <scribe> ACTION: Norm to write up a description of the split step and the
   eval step to inform discussion of multiple inputs and outputs [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action13]

   Henry: I doubt that the complexity is worth the functionality, but we'll
   see.

  5.29 Large document subtree iteration

   Alex: I can write this up. This is a streaming use case. Nothing prevents
   p:viewport from doing this, but your implementation may not work that way.

   <scribe> ACTION: Alex to write up 5.29 [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action14]

   Norm: Isn't 5.30 just an example of 5.29?

   Alex: Yes.

  5.31 Fallback of XSLT processor choice

   Vojtech: There are a couple of different ways to interpret this.

   Norm expresses concerns about the multiple output document.

   Norm: I'm all for writing it up, but let's leave out multiple output
   documents because it's a side issue

   <scribe> ACTION: Vojtech and Norm to collaborate on writing up 5.31
   [recorded in [49]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action15]

  5.32 No fallback for XQuery

   Vojtech: The pipeline will fail at runtime not compile time.

   Norm: I can see how a long run that failed because of the last step would
   be annoying.

   Alex: But we have step-available, so this is solved.

   Norm: I agree.

   <scribe> ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline for 5.32 [recorded in
   [50]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action16]

  Any other business

   Murray: I only recently came across the mail that says the aims of this
   effort is at low-hanging fruit.
   ... You can see from this document that I didn't know that.
   ... When we're talking about resource management, are we being entirely
   opportunistic?
   ... Or is there room for something like a webdav.

   Norm observes that we did the low-hanging fruit thing in order to be done
   quickly.

   Alex: Why can't we just add a requirmenet for webdav?

   Norm: I'm all for adding the requirement

   Alex: The deeper question of resource management is still an open issue I
   think.

   Norm: On the resource manager, I think we agreed to talk about it but not
   put it in the critical path.

   Alex: where are the use cases?

   <scribe> ACTION: Norm to write a few resource manager use cases [recorded
   in [51]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action17]

   Murray: The other thing is debugging.
   ... Who's the champion for debugging?

   Norm observes that he'd do it if he had a coupleof years salary in the
   bank

   Alex: Can we engage a tool vendor to help in this area?

   Murray: I gotta hope there's more to the story than log messages.
   ... I know we can do better. What I'm finding it hard to find in the spec
   is all the ways I can get information.

   Alex: I sort of divided the world into debugging vs. tracing a profiling.
   Should we address this in the spec?

   <scribe> ACTION: Norm to put "debugging" on the agenda for next week
   [recorded in [52]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action18]

   Henry: I was surprised and impressed that the XQuery implementations got
   as far as they did. Here's a use case: can you write an XProc processor in
   XProc?
   ... I don't think so.
   ... Another way to put it is, is there an "evaluate this step" step?

   Norm: Only in extensions.

   Adjourned.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline for 5.32 [recorded in
   [53]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action16]
   [NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.14 [recorded in
   [54]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.15 [recorded in
   [55]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: Alex to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.28 [recorded in
   [56]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action12]
   [NEW] ACTION: Alex to write about 5.7, extracting MathML [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: Alex to write up 5.29 [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action14]
   [NEW] ACTION: Alex to write up a description of persistence for 5.12
   [recorded in [59]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Jim to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.17 [recorded in
   [60]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action07]
   [NEW] ACTION: Murray to drop 5.13 [recorded in
   [61]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Norm to put "debugging" on the agenda for next week
   [recorded in [62]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action18]
   [NEW] ACTION: Norm to write a few resource manager use cases [recorded in
   [63]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action17]
   [NEW] ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.16 [recorded in
   [64]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action06]
   [NEW] ACTION: Norm to write a pipeline to demonstrate 5.18 [recorded in
   [65]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action08]
   [NEW] ACTION: Norm to write up a description of the split step and the
   eval step to inform discussion of multiple inputs and outputs [recorded in
   [66]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action13]
   [NEW] ACTION: Vojtech and Norm to collaborate on writing up 5.31 [recorded
   in [67]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action15]
   [NEW] ACTION: Vojtech to consider writing a pipeline for 5.23 [recorded in
   [68]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action11]
   [NEW] ACTION: Vojtech to send a pointer to his XML Prague paper to Murray
   [recorded in [69]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action09]
   [NEW] ACTION: Vojtech to write pipelines to demontrate 5.21 and 5.22
   [recorded in [70]http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action10]

   [End of minutes]

   --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [71]scribe.perl version 1.136 ([72]CVS
    log)
    $Date: 2012/04/19 18:53:24 $

References

   1. http://www.w3.org/
   2. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-agenda
   3. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-irc
   4. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#agenda
   5. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item01
   6. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item02
   7. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item03
   8. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item04
   9. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item05
  10. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item06
  11. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item07
  12. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item08
  13. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item09
  14. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item10
  15. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item11
  16. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item12
  17. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item13
  18. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item14
  19. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item15
  20. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item16
  21. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item17
  22. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item18
  23. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item19
  24. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item20
  25. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item21
  26. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item22
  27. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item23
  28. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item24
  29. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item25
  30. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#item26
  31. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-minutes#ActionSummary
  32. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/19-agenda
  33. http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2012/04/12-minutes
  34. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2012Apr/0024.html
  35. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01
  36. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02
  37. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03
  38. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04
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  44. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action10
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  46. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action12
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  49. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action15
  50. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action16
  51. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action17
  52. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action18
  53. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action16
  54. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action04
  55. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action05
  56. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action12
  57. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action01
  58. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action14
  59. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action02
  60. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action07
  61. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action03
  62. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action18
  63. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action17
  64. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action06
  65. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action08
  66. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action13
  67. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action15
  68. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action11
  69. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action09
  70. http://www.w3.org/2012/04/19-xproc-minutes.html#action10
  71. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  72. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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