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Minutes for XML Core WG telcon of 2016 February 3

From: Paul Grosso <paul@paulgrosso.name>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2016 10:55:29 -0600
To: public-xml-core-wg@w3.org
Message-ID: <56B23101.3070508@paulgrosso.name>


[3 organizations (6 with proxies) present out of 8]

Jirka, proxy to the chair
Mohamed, proxy to the chair
David, proxy to the chair

Absent organizations
NACS (with regrets, proxy to the chair)
Innovimax (with regrets, proxy to the chair)
Jirka Kosek (with regrets, proxy to the chair)
W3C (with regrets)
John Cowan

Our next telcon is scheduled for February 17.

Henry gives regrets.

> 1. Accepting the minutes from the last telcon [3] and
>   the current task status [2] (have any questions, comments,
>   or corrections ready by the beginning of the call).


> 2. Miscellaneous administrivia and document reviews.
> If, for any of the subitems to this agenda item, there has
> been no progress on it by the end of this week's telcon,
> that item will be removed from our running agenda.

So noted.  All subitems in this agenda item will be deleted from
subsequent status reports and agendas.

> See https://www.w3.org/XML/Group/Core#xml-pe-issues
> for XML potential errata.
> See https://www.w3.org/XML/Group/Core#xmlns-pe-issues
> for XML Namespaces potential errata.
> XML Potential Errata
> --------------------
> Comment that “or by the Byte Order Mark” is lacking in section 4.3.3:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-editor/2013OctDec/0002
> Comment that an entity cannot “begin” with a BOM as suggested in 
> section 4.3.3:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-editor/2013OctDec/0003
> ACTION to John and Henry: Review and comment on the above two comments
> on the discussion of BOMs in section 4.3.3 of the XML spec.
> ----
> Comment about documents with an "empty DTD":
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2014Jan/thread#msg8
> and
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-editor/2014JanMar/
> Henry suggests we could probably make the XML spec clearer here;
> see also his comments at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-editor/2014JanMar/0004
> Paul sent the WG response at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-editor/2014JanMar/0005
> and there was more back from the commentor at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-editor/2014JanMar/
> Henry referenced Paul's email at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-editor/2014JanMar/0010
> especially Paul's suggestion in point 4, though Henry wasn't
> sure he agreed with the suggestion.
> ACTION to Henry:  Post some suggestion(s) to the list about
> how to address: Comment about documents with an "empty DTD".
> ----
> Question about normalization checking in XML 1.1
> ------------------------------------------------
> John Cowan forwarded an email for us to consider at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2014Dec/0026
> which I've also forwarded to the xml-editor list at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-editor/2014OctDec/0000
> for official/archive purposes.
> Paul wrote some comments in email at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2014Dec/0028
> Henry checked with Richard who agrees it's a bug, though how
> to fix it isn't obvious. Probably the only candidates for not
> being normalized are (internal and external) doctypes per email at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2015Jan/0004
> ACTION to Norm and Henry: Review the email about normalization checking
> in XML 1.1 and suggest an appropriate corrigendum.
> ----
> Potential Erratum to Namespaces
> -------------------------------
> CMSMcQ raised a potential erratum against Namespaces at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-names-editor/2014Sep/0000
> with WG discussion started at
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2014Sep/0019
> He says that our latest wording in the definition of 'namespace name'
> (section 2.1) appears to say that an element with no namespace binding
> in scope is in no namespace as opposed to saying its namespace is
> unknown (thereby leaving the possibility that its namespace
> information may be determined by some other methods).
> Norm, Paul, and Henry posted some thoughts on this, and none
> of us feel that the current wording is necessarily bad enough
> to be worth any change. In particular, Norm doesn't agree with
> what Michael thinks should be the case. Henry points out that
> HTML5 does "make use of" defining namespaces without the
> namespace spec mechanism.
> Henry had some more (private) exchanges with Michael, and
> Henry will summarize the discussion for the WG.
> ACTION to Henry: Summarize and provide current status of
> the discussion of this namespace potential erratum.
> 3. Submitting XML Schema 1.1 to ISO
> See also
> https://www.w3.org/XML/Group/Core#xml-schema
> We have decided we will first publish XML Schema 1.1 2E (with
> approved errata). After that, we would send XML Schema 1.1 2E
> (only) to ISO.
> Loren has offered to do the editorial duties, and David
> talked to CMSMCQ about getting some more help in the details.
> It looks like there are 3 bugs for Structures, none for Datatypes,
> but after checking with Michael, he found
> https://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2004/06/xmlschema-1/structures.errata-2012.html
> which shows 8 errata items whereas bugzilla shows only 3.
> We discussed
> https://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2004/06/xmlschema-1/structures.errata-2012.html
> Henry figures we can just publish this document.
> Loren believes the latest document includes everything,
> so the next step is to push it through the tool chain.
> We will need a diff (or list of changes).
> Loren says the diff is already available.
> We needed to consider whether any of the changes are normative
> and/or require a change to the test suite.  After some discussion,
> we decided we should just create a PER.
> We still need to:  Create the PER, i.e., XML Schema 1.1 Second Edition,
> and post (e.g., at http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/2014/12/xschema11.html)
> for the WG to review.
> ACTION to David: Consider how to further progress on this work item.
> If by the end of this week's telcon we have no more idea how to make
> progress on this, I plan to delete this item from our running agenda.

So noted.  This agenda item will be deleted from subsequent
status reports and agendas.

> 4.  XInclude 1.1--see http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/Core#xinclude
> On 2015 June 30, we published our second XInclude 1.1 CR at
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/CR-xinclude-11-20150630/
> This CR period ran minimally through the end of August; at this
> time we appear to have enough implementations (though Henry may
> supply another), and we are waiting to update the spec, test suite,
> and implementation report to go the PR.
> Norm has an implementation in XML Calabash.
> He has also implemented XInclude 1.1 in MarkLogic.
> Jirka reports that there is another XInclude 1.1 implementation
> in XML Mind XML Editor.  See:
> http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/changes.html#v6.2.0
> Note also the desire for another test case for the XInclude test suite per
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2014Apr/0000
> ACTION to Norm:  Update the implementation report and test suite.

ACTION to Norm continued.

> ---
> Henry points out that Section 4.4 [11] references RFC 3023
> which has been superseded by RFC 7303 [12].  The 7303 rules
> for determining encoding of XML documents are slightly
> different from the 3023 ones, and might even be a bit easier to
> implement.  He doesn't think you can get away from starting to
> read at least some documents twice, but he'd like to discuss
> this on our next call.
> [11] http://www.w3.org/TR/xinclude-11/#text-included-items
> [12] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7303
> ACTION to Henry:  Review the consequences to the spec of
> changing 3023 to 7303 and report to Norm so that he can
> adjust the spec accordingly.

Henry sent email about this at

We discussed his email on the telcon, and we (Henry, Norm,
and Paul) think it is a reasonable editorial change.

ACTION to Norm:  Net editorial tweaking, make this wording
change to the latest XInclude 1.1 draft.  Also, replace
the reference to 3023 with one to 7303.

> ---
> Paul raised the question of whether the spec requires
> the support for RFC 5147. It isn't mentioned under
> Application Conformance, but the description of fragid,
> it says "for text processing, [the fragid value] is
> interpreted as a [IETF RFC 5147] fragment identifier"
> and it doesn't discuss what to do if an implementation
> doesn't support that.
> Norm suggests that we can't force implementations to
> support it and that we should clarify the spec to say
> that lack of support for fragid when parse=text
> should be a recoverable error.
> Henry and Paul agree with that suggestion.
> ACTION to Norm:  Update the spec to clarify that lack
> of support for fragid when parse=text should be a
> recoverable error.

ACTION to Norm continued.

> paul
> [1] http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/Core
> [2] http://www.w3.org/XML/Group/Core#tasks
> [3] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2016Jan/0010
Received on Wednesday, 3 February 2016 17:01:19 UTC

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