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RE: xml-model and DTDs [was: Minutes for XML Core WG telcon of 2011 April 6]

From: Grosso, Paul <pgrosso@ptc.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:53:34 -0400
Message-ID: <9B2DE9094C827E44988F5ADAA6A2C5DA029095D2@HQ-MAIL9.ptcnet.ptc.com>
To: <public-xml-core-wg@w3.org>
Just before seeing this email, I posted up a new draft at
http://www.w3.org/XML/2011/04/xml-model/xml-model-diff.htm

See what you think of it.

Process-wise, I note that the changes consist of:

* two new sentences in the intro which is non-normative
* extremely minor rewording in one sentence in section 3
* the stylesheet -> schema typo correction in section 3
* a reference update
* a "footnote" in the table in appendix C (non-normative)

so it is fair to characterize these changes as quite minimal.

paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jirka Kosek [mailto:jirka@kosek.cz]
> Sent: Wednesday, 2011 April 13 9:41
> To: John Cowan
> Cc: Grosso, Paul; public-xml-core-wg@w3.org
> Subject: Re: xml-model and DTDs [was: Minutes for XML Core WG telcon of
> 2011 April 6]
> 
> John Cowan wrote:
> > Grosso, Paul scripsit:
> >
> >> Sure, at one level, a PI is a PI and therefore cannot affect the
> >> validity of the document which contains it.
> >
> > That's my only point.
> 
> Hi Paul and John,
> 
> I think that I understand to both direction in which you approach the
> problem. However at this stage I would prefer as minimal change to spec
> text as possible while addressing comments received during ISO process.
> If there are some interop problem found in future we can always address
> them by issuing another edition at W3C and amendment at ISO.
> 
> > That's why I spoke of validity rather than validation.  XML validity
> > is a property of documents, whereas validation of XML is a much more
> > flexible notion, which may or may not involve determining XML
> validity.
> 
> I can see difference, but I'm not sure that average Joe XML developer
> will grasp this subtle difference.
> 
> >> * what should it mean if the document has both a doctype declaration
> >> and an xml-model that points to a DTD.
> >
> > It's up to the application what that means, but only the DOCTYPE
> > declaration affects validity.
> 
> I think that we can add similar phrase to one which defines relation to
> xsi:schemaLocation attributes.
> 
> "This specification does not define the interaction of xml-model
> processing instructions with XML document type declaration
> [http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/#dt-doctype]. Applications supporting both
> xml-model processing instructions and XML document type declaration may
> provide means for specifying which information takes precedence."
> 
> >> * are DTDs associated with a document via an xml-model PI used for
> >> creating or augmenting an information set from a given document?
> Or,
> >> are such DTDs simply used for validation rather than augmentation?
> >
> > The application can do either validation or augmentation or both or
> > neither.
> 
> +1
> 
> Although we probably need to clarify this somewhere, because this is
> core of JP-0001 comment:
> 
> "If DTDs associated by the xml-model PI
> contain entity declarations or
> attribute default values, are they used for
> creating or augmenting an
> information set from a given document? Or,
> are DTDs simply
> used for validation rather than augmentation?
> 
> Clearly state whether associated DTDs
> contribute to information sets"
> 
> I can answer this comment simply by saying that this is out-of-scope
> for
> xml-model and that this is completely implementation dependent. The
> question is whether we need to add some text to spec to make this more
> clear. I think that there is no need for adding some new text as from
> introduction text it should be clear that this is out-of-scope. I can
> also try to contact original submitter (I think that it was either
> directly Murata-san or that he can point me to the right person) and
> check if he would be happy with such resolution.
> 
> 				Jirka
> 
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Jirka Kosek      e-mail: jirka@kosek.cz      http://xmlguru.cz

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Received on Wednesday, 13 April 2011 14:54:15 GMT

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