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minutes from 2008-10-16 XHTML2 call [DRAFT]

From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 15:11:14 +0000
To: public-xhtml2@w3.org
Message-Id: <20080116150839.M87484@hicom.net>

aloha!

minutes from today's XHTML2 telecon are available online at:

http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html

and as plain text following my signature

the IRC log from the call is also available:

http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc

please log any errors, omissions, mis-attributions (i'll get your voices
straight one of these days, mark and roland!) should be logged by 
replying to this post on-list

reminder: there is a February 2008 Face2Face page-in-progress:
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2007-02-Venice-FtF

and, yes, for those of you not on the call, we do have a wiki

gregory.

----------------------------------------------------------------

                                   - DRAFT -

                        XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

16 Jan 2008

   Agenda
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0015

   See also: IRC log [http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-irc]

Attendees

   Present
          +20876aabb, +386.8.aaaa, Alessio, Gregory_Rosmaita,
          Mark_Birbeck, Roland, Shane_McCarron, Steven, markbirbeck, yamx

   Regrets
          Christine

   Chair
          Roland

   Scribe
          Gregory

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Modularization Transition
         2. CURIES to Last Call
         3. RDFa Module
     * Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________________



   <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2007-02-Venice-FtF

   <scribe> scribe: Gregory

   <scribe> scribeNick: oedipus

   <Roland> Gerrie Shults from HP joining

   SP: 3 announcements: HP joining group again, 2) have at long last a
   wiki (only one full page) (MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki); 3) made f2f page
   ... third announcement -- yahoo announced last week that new mobile
   widget platform is based on XForms -- backs up a lot of what we've
   been saying -- chose so as to enable platform to be directed to as
   many devices possible, in the most appropriate manner -- in phase one
   (transitional) but second will use straight XForms

   <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/

   <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2007-02-Venice-FtF

   RM: Selectors API - anything to report?

   <Steven> http://mobile.yahoo.com/developers/roadmap

   <markbirbeck> Shame that XML will never be used on the web, though. ;)

   SP: webAPs have almost as many deliverables as we do -- at least 13

   RM: 2 Web Apps groups going to merge

   SP: part of review -- who will take up what

   RM: Rich not here, so perhaps postpone ARIA issue discussion
   ... alessio will update wiki with details for f2f -- everyone planning
   to attend

   [note: everyone on call planning to attend]

   AC: IWA Italy (host)

   Yam: need to know for visa app

   SP: populate wiki and let yam know

   ACTION Alessio - add details to f2f wiki page

Modularization Transition

   SP: sent an implementation request to RM and Shane -- in status of
   doc, discovered that still talks about HTML WG rather than XHTML2 WG
   -- needs change
   ... will send info to all necessary channels

CURIES to Last Call

   RM: datatype, etc. discussion at last week's call -- any answers?

   <Roland>
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2007Mar/0038.html

   SP: difference btw lexical value of CURIE and its value space
   ... my claim is lexical value is as described in spec, value space is
   just URI -- think mark agreed, but shane dissented, but willing to let
   it pass

   RM: one more step -- pointing out that in Qnames talk about 2
   components (2 seperate parts joined together for purpose) - value
   space, but alos prior stage when have 2 different parts -- left with
   mapping to URI plus suffix

   SP: why would we need to do that

   RM: point raised in email, if attempting to be backwards compatible
   applies to us, too

   Shane: posted to list on topic -
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0011.html

   SP: my question to mark is - is there any sense in our being backwards
   compatible with QNames -- problem: 2 CURIES that expand to same URI,
   but prefix and suffix different -- not case in QName -- if same prefix
   and suffix there is a one-to-one mapping; don't see value of triples

   RM: wants us to be clearer on whatever we decide -- we're dealing with
   specific case of QNames, not a general use of QNames -- if make
   clearer and say value space final URI cannonized by whatever
   cannonicalization thing supposed to use to compare 2 CURIES

   MB: happy with that if Shane is

   Shane: think i'm happy with that -- please refer to final paragraph

   quote: Note that, as things stand right now, a CURIE used in a
   document like

   XHTML+RDFa will NOT be expanded in the DOM. If you are writing
   portable

   scripts today, you will need to do that expansion yourself. I think

   that, given Steven and Mark's arguments, you MUST do this expansion if

   you are going to attempt to do anything with CURIEs in a portable

   script. If, on the other hand, you are just writing a script for your

   own content, you could easily operate on the literal values, since you

   know what the prefixes and references mean.

   Shane: now, scripts are effecting DOM

   RM: crack open and convert to URIs

   Shane: does nothing to help write script looking for roles

   SP: script uses these parsers -- include script and API gives you the
   different bits; libraries for CURIES that do expansion for you --
   don't query DOM to "give me this" but ask the API
   ... agree with last paragraph -- not automatically in DOM -- have to
   construct yourself or use something that constructs it for you

   [scribe's note -- GJR mistook MB for RM repeatedly)

   RM: who will reply to tell what we will do

   SP: candidates?

   RM: the 3 people involved in the dialog

   Shane: i can do it

   <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add text about expanding CURIEs into URIs in
   scripting. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]

   SP: definitive reference for transition from IRI to what goes over
   wire

   <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to respond to submitter of question about value
   space of CURIEs and their relation to the value space of qnames.
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action02]

   <Steven> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3987.txt

   RM: CURIES issue 8010

   <Roland>
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007JanMar/0051

   Shane: we've already done this eight months ago

   RM: final one on list also done?

   <Roland>
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2007AprJun/0000

   "When a CURIE is used in an XML grammar, and the prefix on the CURIE
   is omitted, then the prefix MUST be interpreted as the current default
   XML namespace."

   Shane: was it our intent to remove ambiguity (he says "flexibility")
   and answer is a resounding YES -- i replied to norm on this

   SP: we do mean current namespace (in reference to NormW's last
   comment) -- must be interpreted as if had prefix of current default
   XML namespace

   Shane; draft change so can't have non-prefixed CURIES -- have to
   define prefix

   <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-curie-20071126/

   "When CURIES are used in a non-XML host language, the host language
   MUST provide a mechanism for defining the mapping from the prefix to
   an IRI. A host language MAY provide a mechanism for defining a default
   prefix value. In such a host language, if the prefix is omitted from a
   CURIE, the default prefix value is used. The concatenation of the
   prefix associated with a CURIE and its reference MUST be an IRI [IRI].
   The CURIE prefix '_' is reserved. For this r

   SP: mark, you said we made more flexible

   MB: both scenarios XML Schema uses default NS, XSLT uses none --
   asking if removed that, we didn't -- if allow host language to define
   prefix, have SPARQL if not have RDF
   ... second question - addressed as well

   "The default prefix? Do you not mean the default namespace?

   MB: host language MAY is wording

   SP: default prefix is issue

   Shane: if a language mapping permits defaults, it will define
   mechanism, if not, the language will not permit it

   SP: if language doesn't support default prefixes, production for CURIE
   wrong - prefix not optional

   Shane: not really -- syntax still right

   MB: some kind of API? here are a whole lot of mappings, here is a
   CURIE, please tell me what the IRI is -- host language needs means of
   hosting and defining the CURIE through API -- language should inhibit
   the format that it doesn't like and not even call the API

   Shane: arbitrary rules for prefix mapping -- can't have generic prefix
   mapping anyway -- there is no default prefix that is the rule

   MB: latest editors' draft -- slightly out-of-date compared with RDFa
   -- perhaps we need to reword

   <markbirbeck> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#s_curies

   Shane: shouldn't be anything generic in RDFa that would cause problem
   unless something changed in last round of edits, which hasn't been
   made public

   s/RM: latest/MB: latest/

   MB: whether define mapping to use for default prefix and when define
   way for authors to override that are 2 seperate things
   ... need another draft

   RM: objective is to issue LC draft
   ... can we get these cleared this week so can make decision to go to
   LC next week?

   MB: cleared -- think specific comments resolved/answered

   <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to reconcile CURIE draft with CURIE RDFa text
   so the processing model is consistent and the rules about default
   prefix processing are complete. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action03]

   RM: draft ready for LC in time to review before next meeting

   <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to produce a CURIE last call candidate for next
   week's call. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action04]

   RM: done all can do today on CURIES -- any other issues?

   [silence]

RDFa Module

   <Roland>
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0001.html

   RM: first item from last spring

   <Roland> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml-rdfa-20070402/

   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0003.html

   <Roland>
   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0008.html

   "Two quick points noted by the CC folks: 1) xmlns still not
   supported.... darn DTDs, right? What's the path to fixing the W3C
   validator in this regard? Does it have to be schema-based? 2) it seems
   the document must be served as application/xhtml+xml... but XHTML 1.1
   should be servable as text/html, right? Is there a deeper issue here
   that I don't understand?"

   Shane: done something really clever -- group member took collection of
   test cases and integrated them into a web page with ajax backend stuff
   that allows for easy browsing and use of tests -- try to find link for
   that
   ... decent approach to testing -- i think; don't know how to run tests
   against RDF

   MB: could use extended version of Manu's test suite locally

   <Steven> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/

   Shane: issues resolving references for URIs due to SPARQL queries

   Shene: rules for dealing with test cases? not normative part of spec

   SP: no, not normative, but part of transition to PR
   ... issue CR spec with test suite -- here's CR spec, here's test
   suite, and then use to prove have 2 implementations

   Shane: isn't a test suite document -- just bag of tests tell people to
   use
   ... should draft reference drafts or part of transition announcement

   SP: part of transition announcement

   RM: near LC of RDFa

   Shane: WG needs to approve LC draft once there is a document --some
   strange outstanding issues that need to be resolved

   RM: none of items on list for modularization are still pertinent, but
   will look through

   Shane: they are ALL closed off; implementation report, as part of most
   recent draft produced last week (thought would use for CR request)

   SP: i did

   Shane: updated M12n candidate for CR transition -- you refer to last
   editors' draft, but that's not what we are pushing for CR
   ... only thing changed recently is "prose versus implementation" --
   should add text to clarify there is a prose spec and implementations,
   if inconsistencies, prose wins
   ... didn't agree to change MUST to SHOULD in M12n, just Role

   RM: not my recollection

   Shane: changed in role and considered changing in access; argued that
   can't change in M12n -- no one thought of implications of importing
   all attributes in a namespace

   RM: think discussed in november
   ... relaxed constraint for Role for ARIA

   SP: yes

   Shane: agree we would do in role, but not in M12n

   RM: have to change in M12n -- could be interpreted as change that
   could push back to LC -- will try and find pointer

   GJR: think on second day of f2f

   http://www.w3.org/2007/11/09-xhtml-minutes

   Shane: not even sure where to change

   quote: <markbirbeck> When @role appears without a namespace in another
   language, it is because that language has added it to its own
   language. Just like @class in SVG is *not* @class in HTML, but they
   have given it the same semantics to make it easier for people to use
   ... Steven: I would prefer just one, with an ENglish sentence "Rule
   3.1.5 of modularization does not apply to this attribute" or somesuch

   Roland: Good

   [scribe's note - Roland's comment "good" from minutes

   rssagent, draft minutes

   rssagent, draft minutes

   <ShaneM> steven.... M12N says this: <p>Each of the attributes defined
   in an XHTML attribute collection

   <ShaneM> is available for use when

   <ShaneM> their corresponding module is included in an XHTML Host
   Language or an

   <ShaneM> XHTML Integration Set. In such a

   <ShaneM> situation, the attributes are available for use in the
   definition

   <ShaneM> of elements that are NOT

   <ShaneM> in the XHTML namespace when they are referenced using their

   <ShaneM> namespace-qualified identifier (e.g.,
   <code>xhtml:class</code>).

   <ShaneM> The semantics of the attributes remain the same regardless of
   whether

   <ShaneM> they are referenced using their qualified identifier or not.

   <ShaneM> <strong>It is an error to use an XHTML namespace-qualified
   attribute on elements from the XHTML Namespace.</strong>

   <ShaneM> </p>

   <ShaneM> or roland. Is that where you think there should be a change?

   <Steven> Thanks Gegory!

   <Steven> Gregory

   no problem, steven!

   steven, are you going to push the minutes -- it's no bother to me if i
   do

   <Steven> As you like

   <Steven> If you volunteer :-)

   aye, aye, cap'n!

   steven, do you know to whom the mystery numbers belong?

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Shane to add text about expanding CURIEs into URIs in
   scripting. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: Shane to produce a CURIE last call candidate for next
   week's call. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: Shane to reconcile CURIE draft with CURIE RDFa text so
   the processing model is consistent and the rules about default prefix
   processing are complete. [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Shane to respond to submitter of question about value
   space of CURIEs and their relation to the value space of qnames.
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/16-xhtml-minutes.html#action02]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________________
Received on Wednesday, 16 January 2008 15:11:26 GMT

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