W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-xhtml2@w3.org > October 2007

Re: ARIA States and Properties Meeting

From: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:50:19 -0400
Cc: annevk@opera.com, forums@david-woolley.me.uk, www-svg@w3.org, public-html@w3.org, public-xhtml2@w3.org, w3c-wai-pf@w3.org, w3c-html-cg@w3.org
Message-Id: <2B475CBE-D915-4585-89B4-0F5F124E76E9@comcast.net>
To: T.V Raman <raman@google.com>

and indeed the at has to be enhanced as well.

On Oct 30, 2007, at 6:38 PM, T.V Raman wrote:

>
> Actually ARIA cannot be used in a browser that hasn't been
> enhanced for it.
>
> ARIA helps the AT *only* when the browser has been enhanced to
> react to the presence of ARIA properties and raise the relevant
> events in response.
>
> You can prove this to yourself by taking an un-ARIA enhanced
> browser like Opera or  IE, loading an ARIA-enhanced document, and
> verifying that it makes *no* difference to any supporting AT.
>
> Anne van Kesteren writes:
>>
>> On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:02:03 +0200, David Woolley
>> <forums@david-woolley.me.uk> wrote:
>>> Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>>>> 2. Colon is not an option for text/html
>>>> We cannot use the colon instead of a hyphen, because a colon in
>>>> attribute names causes problems in IE. For example, you cannot  
>>>> use CSS
>>>
>>> Interestingly, though, IE is the strongest precedent for using :  
>>> as as
>>> namespace separator in documents served as text/html.  It is used  
>>> for
>>> VML and for the Microsoft Office supplementary markup.
>>
>> Which is why it's a good reason to not overload that even more with
>> something that would work differently. Also, the idea of ARIA is  
>> that it
>> can be used in existing content without the need for browsers to  
>> implement
>> enhancements. Introducing a namespaced syntax in HTML defeats that
>> requirement.
>>
>>
>>>> attribute selectors in IE when using a colon in the attribute  
>>>> name. Use
>>>
>>> Firstly, I don't actually see complaints that VML and Office  
>>> markup is
>>> causing a problem in this respect, but also, I was under the  
>>> impression
>>> that IE still didn't have strong support for attribute value based
>>> selectors (I've not seen them used in mainstream web site CSS),  
>>> which I
>>> would have thought would be necessary for ARIA attributes to be  
>>> useful
>>> in CSS.  It could be an issue for scripting.
>>
>> They work fine in my copy of Internet Explorer 7. (Well, except for  
>> the
>> noted issue with colons.)
>>
>>
>>>> *6. Currently proposed solutions for ARIA states and properties  
>>>> (not
>>>> role)*
>>>> A. Use hyphenated property everywhere .
>>>
>>> This means that either ARIA attributes have to be part of the core  
>>> of
>>> XHTML, SVG, etc., or that you have the ugly situation of having two
>>> different syntaxes for namespacing co-exist, one of which is only
>>> available to official standards, because it cannot guarantee global
>>> uniqueness otherwise.
>>
>> We don't want to introduce namespacing in the Namespaces in XML  
>> sense, see
>> above. Using the same syntax in a controlled set of languages seem  
>> fine.
>> If there's ever a need for a more "global" syntax that can be  
>> introduced
>> when the problem arises.
>>
>>
>>>> D. For long term consideration: Should the W3C consider create a
>>>> collection of cross-cutting attributes which may be used across
>>>> renderable markup languages without namespaces. e.g. (Role, ARIA,
>>>> RDF/A, etc.)
>>
>> I don't think we should make this anymore generic than it is. If we  
>> keep
>> it consistent with naming in HTML and SVG all should be fine.
>>
>>
>>> For the long term, shouldn't one be assuming that text/html browsers
>>> will support XML namespace notation in CSS; the major one already
>>> supports it in the HTML.  (Or that the world will move to XML -  
>>> although
>>> it is looking less and less likely that that will happen.)
>>
>> This doesn't fit in the requirements of ARIA, as far as I can tell.  
>> I'm
>> also not sure what XML namespace notation support in CSS would help  
>> here
>> as HTML doesn't support namespaces.
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Anne van Kesteren
>> <http://annevankesteren.nl/>
>> <http://www.opera.com/>
>
> -- 
> Best Regards,
> --raman
>
> Title:  Research Scientist
> Email:  raman@google.com
> WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
> Google: tv+raman
> GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
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>
>
Received on Wednesday, 31 October 2007 15:50:46 GMT

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