W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-xg-webid@w3.org > January 2012

Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...

From: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2012 13:45:24 -0500
Message-ID: <4F09E444.7030806@openlinksw.com>
To: public-xg-webid@w3.org
On 1/8/12 2:49 AM, Henry Story wrote:
>
> On 8 Jan 2012, at 08:30, Peter Williams wrote:
>
>>
>>  Peter williams (known in spanish as el stupido) believed the RDFa 
>> last standard was finished ~2 years ago. we learn that , just as its 
>> finally finally-finished, and its so finished just as its replacement 
>> sort of goes live.
>
> rdfa in xhtml was finished.

Good point!

And xhtml != html .

So why shoehorn xhtml into html via horrible DOCTYPE hack the just 
messes up everything?

HTML5 is implemented by all the browser players. Thus, why ignore this 
hardcore consumer realm fact?

>
>>  Im used to this, game. Ive seen it before; more than once.
>
> indeed TLS v1.2 was also out years ago and is only being deployed now. 
> Java 7 has it btw.
>
>>
>> This is wny we in realty wait 3 more years, till the semweb is 15 
>> year old.
>
> There are different adoption curves. NASA has been using it and so 
> have the life sciences for a long time. Governemtns and universities 
> are using it to publish data. Realty may who knows be the last to use 
> it. Perhaps they never will.

Look, the problem is this, and I think many in the W3C already 
understand and accept the fact that you don't prescribe standards. The 
process of standardization should be retrospective with long term 
preservation in mind.

WebID cannot be a prescription. It needs adoption by a broad range of 
profile across academia and industry. From that emerges standardization 
which also incorporates real world utilization patterns.

The WebID spec shouldn't be  a tool for fighting or prolonging  
unproductive syntax wars. Doing that simply undermines the huge 
opportunity at hand.

>
> Anyway, be that as it may. How easy would you find it to publish a 
> turtle document and link to it? Most web sites allow one to publish 
> images, so publishing a turtle document should not be beyond their 
> ability.

What on earth does that mean in the real world? Linked Data developers 
!= real world of consumers that want to publish claims about identities 
in data spaces rented to them by the likes of wordpress, blogspot, 
twitter, linkedin, facebook etc..

You have to play well with what exists. Alternative approaches are dead 
on arrival.

I still don't understand why you just won't accept the reality of 
Microdata and the benefits it brings to WebID by removing yet another 
adoption and appreciation hurdle.

I need you to seriously convince me that you don't understand my point. 
I just do not believe that you don't understand my point, I've known you 
for way to long to believe that.

Kingsley
>
>
>>
>> When its 15 years old, Ive little doubt we will be waiting will its 
>> 18 year old.
>>
>> Until a tooling commnity relinquises control, one waits. The 
>> temptation to hold on to a small tooling market is immense. I 
>> understand that (baving been there for 15 years, with certs). We are 
>> now are entering year 25 with certs.
>>
>> Its that simple. The warning signs are written all over.
>>
>> The most worrisome (but  most human) are that W3C is now all over 
>> crypto. And, I know why. Another knighthood is on the line.
>>
>> Only a couple of days left, to prove the case for or agin.
>>
>> Looking more like agin, as it comes down to the wire.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>> From: henry.story@bblfish.net <mailto:henry.story@bblfish.net>
>> Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 06:16:06 +0100
>> CC: home_pw@msn.com <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>; 
>> j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>; 
>> public-xg-webid@w3.org <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>> To: kidehen@openlinksw.com <mailto:kidehen@openlinksw.com>
>>
>>
>> On 8 Jan 2012, at 05:26, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>>
>>     On 1/7/12 11:05 PM, Henry Story wrote:
>>
>>
>>         On 7 Jan 2012, at 23:59, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>             Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>             On Jan 7, 2012, at 5:28 PM, Henry Story
>>             <henry.story@bblfish.net
>>             <mailto:henry.story@bblfish.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>                 On 7 Jan 2012, at 23:16, Peter Williams wrote:
>>
>>                     So I did it on my "programmers" web site- where
>>                     Im acting unconsumer-like (built a special
>>                     purpose web app).
>>
>>                     And, on my blogspot account, I added the
>>                     meta-link to the template. But, AS A CONSUMER i
>>                     cannot set the content type (of a server).
>>
>>                     So here we have a conundrum.
>>
>>                     The ONLY THING THAT MAKES RDFa viable
>>                     "politically" is that it works in the crappy web
>>                     as-is (used by 1 or 2 billion folks). It doesnt
>>                     need web upgrade, or powers that the typical
>>                     consumer does not have. it is supposed to work
>>                     with everyone's HTML editor (even one 10 years
>>                     old) uploading to an 10 year old web endpoint.
>>
>>
>>                 In a few months there will be both rdfa 1.1 that is
>>                 well defined in html, and a well formed semantics for
>>                 micro data which is also an html5 technology. I am
>>                 told that both are very similar, and for some simple
>>                 substitutions micro data is rdfa too.
>>
>>                 So here you have to be a bit patient. I think you can
>>                 serve what you have as html just make sure you close
>>                 tags <span></span> and that you don't use the xhtml
>>                 version of <span/> .  You are living a little more on
>>                 the bleeding edge here, so it's just a question of
>>                 being a little bit more careful.
>>
>>
>>             And we pretend Microdara doesn't exist , right?
>>
>>
>>         No, I did not say that. I said we wait a bit for the dust to
>>         settle and the standards to be finished.
>>
>>
>>     And I am asking: why do you think the dust has settled re. the
>>     ability to make machine comprehensible eav/spo based directed
>>     graphs from html with microdata based structured data islands?
>>     There are converters/translators/rdfizers (beyond ours) out there
>>     that do this all ready [1][2].
>>
>>         Or Peter finds a way to put the xhtml mime type up.
>>
>>
>>     He won't in consumer mode.
>>
>>          We are working here for a standards body, so why should we
>>         be ignoring standards?
>>
>>
>>     You tell me.
>>
>>         For the moment the standard of microdata to rdf is not
>>         finished, and neither is RDFa .
>>
>>
>>     But RDFa is finished enough for you re. WebID but not so re.
>>     Microdata. That's my perennial problem with this overt bias.
>>
>>
>> RDFa 1.0 is finished
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/
>>
>> (in xhtml).  It is the Xhtml version that we are supporting. You do too.
>> Peter williams has a problem with HTML. He does not seem to be able 
>> to get the right mime type.
>> He wrote:
>>
>>                     The ONLY THING THAT MAKES RDFa viable
>>                     "politically" is that it works in the crappy web
>>                     as-is (used by 1 or 2 billion folks). It doesnt
>>                     need web upgrade, or powers that the typical
>>                     consumer does not have. it is supposed to work
>>                     with everyone's HTML editor (even one 10 years
>>                     old) uploading to an 10 year old web endpoint.
>>
>>
>>
>> And my answer was just wait until the standards are finished, or use 
>> the html mime type and see how far you get. No guarantees.
>>
>>
>>         Both are pretty much the same: they are unfinished. So we
>>         don't pick a winner.
>>
>>
>>     You are picking a winner by preferring one of the other. That's
>>     the problem, I repeat!
>>
>>
>> I am not picking a winner. I am trying to help Peter Williams .
>>
>> Notice how in the quoted text below
>>
>>                     The ONLY THING THAT MAKES RDFa viable
>>                     "politically" is that it works in the crappy web
>>                     as-is (used by 1 or 2 billion folks). It doesnt
>>                     need web upgrade, or powers that the typical
>>                     consumer does not have. it is supposed to work
>>                     with everyone's HTML editor (even one 10 years
>>                     old) uploading to an 10 year old web endpoint.
>>
>>
>> he puts the problem in terms of RDFa viability and so a long term 
>> issue. Notice that if we did not have RDFa he would be complaining 
>> how he can't do anything at all (within his self imposed constraints)
>>
>>
>>
>>         Peter was expressing a FEAR that this would never work. So I
>>         tried to answer his FEARt .
>>
>>
>>     You haven't allayed his fears at all. Peter is honing into the
>>     root problem re. RDFa and Microdata. I've already told you this
>>     is a problem re. text/html squatting of the worst kind. Look at
>>     what it did to your parsing efforts, look at what its doing to
>>     Peter's consumer profile simulation. And that's just the
>>     beginning. Imagine what will happen when more time and attention
>>     challenged folks wonder by WebID.
>>
>>
>> Yes, I agree. But then what are you going to propose as a solution to 
>> Peter Williams? Microdata? But there is not RDF mapping for it that 
>> is official, and so he would have the same problem of the project 
>> working in some servers one way, and other servers another way.
>>
>>
>>     You have no reason for not giving RDFa and Microdata equal
>>     billing re. WebID. Peter's consumer profile will work fine with
>>     Microdata as he will soon demonstrate. This is basically what
>>     we've long handled by working with AtomPub or "Cut and Paste" to
>>     blogs (e.g. WordPress, BlogSpot and others).
>>
>>
>> Please help Peter Williams by publishing his data with the xhtml mime 
>> type, and all will be done.   Or ask him to wait.
>>
>> But I agree this issue does have to be solved. Think of RDFa as being 
>> in the spec with the caveat that those specs get finished and the 
>> rdfa micro data wars get resolved. I can add a note on that subject 
>> to the spec if you wish. Peter Williams seems to be very happy to 
>> have a markup that works in html.
>>
>> Another solution is to have a link from the web page to a turtle 
>> file. Perhaps Peter Williams can explore that option for us from a 
>> consumer perspective - if we understand the type of link required.
>>
>> Henry
>>
>>
>>     Links:
>>
>>     1.http://any23.org/-- Any23 converter that makes the RDF variant
>>     of eav/spo graphs from many syntaxes that includes Microdata
>>     (even better for you its Open Source and Java)
>>
>>     2.http://rdf-translator.appspot.com/-- ditto and it used RDFLib
>>
>>     3.http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller-- ditto and Ruby based.
>>
>>
>>     Kingsley
>>
>>
>>
>>             Kingsley
>>
>>
>>                     Now, we have broken that rule, by requiring
>>                     something other than text/html.
>>
>>                     Now, as as consumer, I have no choice but to
>>                     subscribe to a SEMWEB-SPECIFIC identity
>>                     management system (like ODS). I cannot just use a
>>                     web page.
>>
>>                     Now, Im torn. For CONFORMANCE TESTING (and
>>                     debugging), I dont mind such literalism. For
>>                     products, I expect product to back off, insisting
>>                     on only 80% compliance (trading off security,
>>                     correctness for perfect compliance). I expect
>>                     product to do that which works (even if the
>>                     engineering quality goes down a bit).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>                     > Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 22:25:47 +0100
>>                     > From:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at
>>                     <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>
>>                     > To:home_pw@msn.com <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>
>>                     > CC:public-xg-webid@w3.org
>>                     <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>>                     > Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>>                     >
>>                     > hi again,
>>                     >
>>                     > you now have "application/xhtml+xml" in a
>>                     meta-tag [1] like so
>>                     > <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
>>                     content="application/xhtml+xml;"/>
>>                     >
>>                     > this is very good, but only half the way.
>>                     > you need to set a header also, currently your
>>                     page presents itself to the parser still as
>>                     text/html.
>>                     >
>>                     > in a jsp i do
>>                     >
>>                     > <%@page contentType="application/xhtml+xml"%>
>>                     >
>>                     > wkr j
>>                     >
>>                     > [1]http://idweb.cloudapp.net:8080/Home/About
>>                     >
>>                     >
>>                     > ----- Original Message -----
>>                     > From: "Jürgen Jakobitsch"
>>                     <j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at
>>                     <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>>
>>                     > To: "Peter Williams" <home_pw@msn.com
>>                     <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>>
>>                     > Cc:public-xg-webid@w3.org
>>                     <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>>                     > Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 1:35:12 AM
>>                     > Subject: Re: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>>                     >
>>                     > hi peter,
>>                     >
>>                     > one more thing :
>>                     >
>>                     > for 12 points, you should change the
>>                     content-type of your rdfa-profile to
>>                     application/xhtml+xml, see here [1],
>>                     > i did the same with my testing-rdfa-profile [2]
>>                     today.
>>                     >
>>                     > at this point of time, webIDRealm uses the rdfa
>>                     parser, when the content-type is text/html or
>>                     application/xhtml+xml,
>>                     > but i might/will change this to only
>>                     application/xhtml+xml.
>>                     >
>>                     > wkr j
>>                     >
>>                     > [1]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/
>>                     > [2]http://2sea.org/sea.jsp#j
>>                     >
>>                     >
>>                     >
>>                     > ----- Original Message -----
>>                     > From: "Peter Williams" <home_pw@msn.com
>>                     <mailto:home_pw@msn.com>>
>>                     > To: "j jakobitsch" <j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at
>>                     <mailto:j.jakobitsch@semantic-web.at>>,public-xg-webid@w3.org
>>                     <mailto:public-xg-webid@w3.org>
>>                     > Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 12:48:31 AM
>>                     > Subject: Thankyou for saving my sanity...
>>                     >
>>                     >
>>                     >http://tinyurl.com/7luhnnv
>>                     >
>>                     > Your debug output gave the clue, and W3C
>>                     validator did the rest.
>>                     >
>>                     > All along it was a &, vs an "&amp;"
>>                     >
>>                     > not only is there name/address duality, there is
>>                     duality of encodings of meta-characters in the
>>                     meta documents descirbing resources, bearing
>>                     addresses that may be names (or not).
>>                     >
>>                     > --
>>                     > | Jürgen Jakobitsch,
>>                     > | Software Developer
>>                     > | Semantic Web Company GmbH
>>                     > | Mariahilfer Straße 70 / Neubaugasse 1, Top 8
>>                     > | A - 1070 Wien, Austria
>>                     > | Mob +43 676 62 12 710 | Fax +43.1.402 12 35 - 22
>>                     >
>>                     > COMPANY INFORMATION
>>                     > |http://www.semantic-web.at/
>>                     >
>>                     > PERSONAL INFORMATION
>>                     > | web :http://www.turnguard.com
>>                     <http://www.turnguard.com/>
>>                     > | foaf :http://www.turnguard.com/turnguard
>>                     > | skype : jakobitsch-punkt
>>                     >
>>                     > --
>>                     > | Jürgen Jakobitsch,
>>                     > | Software Developer
>>                     > | Semantic Web Company GmbH
>>                     > | Mariahilfer Straße 70 / Neubaugasse 1, Top 8
>>                     > | A - 1070 Wien, Austria
>>                     > | Mob +43 676 62 12 710 | Fax +43.1.402 12 35 - 22
>>                     >
>>                     > COMPANY INFORMATION
>>                     > |http://www.semantic-web.at/
>>                     >
>>                     > PERSONAL INFORMATION
>>                     > | web :http://www.turnguard.com
>>                     <http://www.turnguard.com/>
>>                     > | foaf :http://www.turnguard.com/turnguard
>>                     > | skype : jakobitsch-punkt
>>
>>
>>                 Social Web Architect
>>                 http://bblfish.net/
>>
>>
>>         Social Web Architect
>>         http://bblfish.net/
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>
>>     Regards,
>>
>>     Kingsley Idehen	
>>     Founder&  CEO
>>     OpenLink Software
>>     Company Web:http://www.openlinksw.com  <http://www.openlinksw.com/>
>>     Personal Weblog:http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen  <http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/%7Ekidehen>
>>     Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
>>     Google+ Profile:https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
>>     LinkedIn Profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Social Web Architect
>> http://bblfish.net/
>
> Social Web Architect
> http://bblfish.net/
>


-- 

Regards,

Kingsley Idehen	
Founder&  CEO
OpenLink Software
Company Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
Personal Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
Twitter/Identi.ca handle: @kidehen
Google+ Profile: https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/about
LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kidehen








Received on Sunday, 8 January 2012 18:45:50 GMT

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